Jim Koch Weighs in on Hop-Bombs

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by AlcahueteJ, Apr 25, 2013.

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  1. kingofhop

    kingofhop Initiate (0) May 9, 2010 Oklahoma
    In Memoriam

    Not to kill yer buzz or nuthin, dude, but Herrburgess is one of the most respected members on this site, and has been for quite some time. Try a little tenderness, man.
     
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  2. BMitch

    BMitch Crusader (447) Jul 10, 2012 Virginia

    Seriously, I've been wondering that this whole time.



    Man...whatever happened to just enjoying a beer because your tastebuds found it to be fucking delicious?
     
  3. RichardMNixon

    RichardMNixon Initiate (0) Jun 24, 2012 Pennsylvania

    Does that mean you can't disagree with him? Even while he's in disagreement with at least one other member on your list?

    That it's so ill-defined is a large part of why I think Koch's comment is silly.
     
  4. kingofhop

    kingofhop Initiate (0) May 9, 2010 Oklahoma
    In Memoriam

    I believe anyone can disagree with anyone Tricky Dick.
     
  5. RichardMNixon

    RichardMNixon Initiate (0) Jun 24, 2012 Pennsylvania

    As do I, which is why I think the hero worship is irrelevant.
     
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  6. Handyandy58

    Handyandy58 Initiate (0) Aug 3, 2011 California

    This site happened.
     
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  7. Providence

    Providence Pooh-Bah (2,628) Feb 24, 2010 Rhode Island
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Again, I don't what Koch was doing was considered "safe" when he first started in the craft game. Sam Boston Lager may as well have been Bourbon County Stout back then.
     
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  8. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,030) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    He didn't say it tastes different, he said it surprises him -- and I understand just what he's saying: I was drinking some Oberon over the weekend while grilling. On Saturday I took my first swallow and just shook my head in amazement at hoe good it tasted (to me) in such a mellow, yet complex way. The next day I had another and it struck me the same way -- just satisfied my palate in those moments, and I've been drinking the beer for over 10 years.
     
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  9. jdoncbus

    jdoncbus Pundit (919) Jun 17, 2006 Ohio

    I've been hooked on craft beer for going on a decade and I still cannot get enough of high IBU, IPAs......color me an immature beer advocate.
     
  10. Satchboogie

    Satchboogie Initiate (0) Oct 16, 2010 Belgium
    Trader

    While I agree with his statement of the 'transitions' that a lot of beer lovers go through, I think he took his criticisms of other brewers WAY to far to the point of his argument completely breaking down. The one line I think is the worst is "There's not a huge set of skills to make an 80-IBU beer" when in reference to Heady Topper. If it was so easy to brew a big DIPA then why doesn't everything taste like Heady, Abner, Double Sunshine, Pure Hoppiness, Dreadknaught, etc? Why are there so many lousy DIPAs and IPAs on the market if it was such an easy beer to make? If he thinks people are just chasing the highest IBUs and bitterness then he is dead wrong. Sure, some might be, but 99% of hop heads want a JUICY Ipa, and that ain't easy to brew. Jim Koch needs to back up his statement and actually put out a good IPA. His attempts of the style have been average at best.

    As others have pointed out, he has also completely contradicted himself, very badly too. "There's a real purpose of the brewer's art, which is not to make strange, exotic, extreme." Then explain to me Triple Bock, Millennium Ale, and Utopias? Jim practically created the barrel aged fad in the US. What makes your Utopias not a "strange, exotic, extreme" beer? What makes Utopia any more of an "excellently crafted" brew than say Hunaphu? I understand where he is coming from (his criticism is towards all the craft brewers who aren't really any good and are making to many lousy big, BA beers rather than create a solid normal lineup) but attacking popular styles and successful examples of those styles is an insult to the industry.
     
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  11. GuzzLah

    GuzzLah Initiate (0) Mar 2, 2013 Illinois

    Hmmm. A week or two ago you said Oberon tastes the same as it did last season. However, when you drank it on Saturday, you were surprised (actually amazed) it tasted good to you "in a mellow and complex way". OK????

    A surprise implies the unexpected occurred. I don't believe that happened. Did you expect it to taste harsh and one dimensional? I don't think so.
     
  12. joelwlcx

    joelwlcx Initiate (0) Apr 23, 2007 Minnesota

    Since when does a beer have to be "balanced"? It seems rather arbitrary.
     
  13. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,030) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Actually, I pointed to my last review of Oberon from a couple years ago, but...

    Yeah... that's partly my point. I've always liked it, then I focused some more as I was enjoying it and was reintroduced to why I liked it. This is also a good example of why I enjoy seasonals so much (unlike others). That reintroduction is quite nice.

    I think a "surprise" would have been a reaction such as that OP in the old Oberon thread -- but nice detraction from HerrB, anyway. :wink:
     
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  14. LCB_Hostage

    LCB_Hostage Zealot (635) Jan 30, 2013 Pennsylvania

    With all due respect to you and your VP, I think there's a significant difference between hop bitterness and the sweetness infused into the products you cite. Add more sugar to pretty much ANYTHING and Americans are going to lap it up. Make it more bitter and I don't think, in general, you're going to see the same response (Note the huge arugala craze that's currently sweeping the nation). So suggesting that all "in-your-face flavors" are equal to me is a totally unsupportable leap of logic. That said, who the hell are all these people buying moscato? I honestly don't think I've ever seen anyone order or drink it.
     
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  15. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Grand Pooh-Bah (3,088) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah Society

    You mention 99% of hopheads want a juicy IPA. Koch appeals to a much broader audience than simply hop heads. Hop heads are a niche within a niche. He did put out an IPA, but I believe he errs on the side of caution with a tamer beer. He also put out the hopology 12 pack in an attempt to educate the consumer.

    There also may be reasons larger breweries can't put out something such as Heady Topper or Pliny. Would you say Russian River and The Alcemist are more skilled than Sierra Nevada, Stone, or Founders? None of them have a top 10 double IPA. Although he did make the Imperial Hallertau Pilsner, which is still to date one of the finer hop-forward beers I've ever had. It was quite popular with beer geeks as well.

    In addtion to that, everyone keeps mentioned Utopia, Triple Bock, and Millenium as evidence that he brews extreme beers. He brews them each year, but when did those actual beers come out? Well before the rise of the IPA as the most popular style in craft beer.
     
  16. bleakies

    bleakies Maven (1,319) Apr 11, 2011 Massachusetts

    Shining example of how many beer nerds seem to think "extreme" is the opposite of "mediocre".
     
  17. NathanWind

    NathanWind Initiate (0) Oct 10, 2012

    So, while I do agree with elements of what Koch is saying, one thing I find funny: that he helps secure microloans and provides mentoring to small brewers producing the types of beer he's criticizing.
     
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  18. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,030) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Isn't it the extreme opposite? :wink:
     
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  19. Satchboogie

    Satchboogie Initiate (0) Oct 16, 2010 Belgium
    Trader

    So Hoptimum, Enjoy By, and Double Trouble aren't top notch DIPAs? Not everything has to be top 10 to be qualified as really good. The hopology pack was a joke. You can't say "he errs on the side of cation with tamer beer" when he called out IPAs for being "uninspiring/no surprise/etc". His IPAs/DIPAs are as uninspiring and forgetable as it gets. American IPAs are still a pretty new style that are showcasing new exciting hops. That's not uninspiring or "all tasting the same", etc. Brewing the same average English style IPAs is uninspiring.

    The comments of Utopia etc are in reference to him claiming that big, experimental beer doesn't make a good brewer and shouldn't be the focus of the craft. He practically invented the extreme beer movement, so how in the world can he rally against it? He completely comes across as being butt-hurt that he is no longer thought of as one of the best brewers in the country.
     
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  20. JG-90

    JG-90 Initiate (0) Nov 29, 2012 New Jersey

    Exactly
     
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