Shelton Brothers issue statement regarding New York's repeal of beer tax and fee exemptions

Discussion in 'Beer News' started by Todd, May 1, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bum732

    bum732 Initiate (0) Feb 18, 2008 Lesotho

    Again, i don't see why you're blaming Shelton for something that your state decided to do. Shelton was just looking out for their interests. Maybe their plan backfired, who knows. But you're blaming the wrong people, IMHO.

    [citation needed]

    So you make assumptions based on my profile, and miss that i live in Montgomery County. In case you didn't know, the county i live in is where MADD was founded. You can bet your ass that our beer laws and taxes are ridiculous, probably more so than NY state (i could be wrong, i don't know the exact numbers). As Hill Farmstead pointed out, they are being taxed much higher for their product than NY brewers will be even after this ruling.



    LOL WUT. Nice straw man, btw. Look, i get it, prices are going up by 10 cents, i feel your pain. I just don't see why its such a big deal in the big picture. And i don't see why blaming Shelton makes you feel better about all this.
     
    StuartCarter likes this.
  2. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    Hidden? But you know about it . . .

    Delaware has pro business incorporation laws.

    They don't violate the constitutional notion of equal protection. That's the difference between the situation we're discussing and what you interjected.
     
  3. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    You realize this alleged $1 increase per pint is 100% because of the actions of New York residents? (i.e. the NY legislators, the breweries and the bars?).

    Shelton didn't decide to charge NY breweries the tax, the NY legislature did. The NY legislature didn't decide to take a $3.50 tax per keg and jack the price up $1 per pint to cover that tax, breweries and bars did. . .(assuming the $1 price increase NYers cite in their news is true.)
     
    teal and funkel81 like this.
  4. deadbody

    deadbody Initiate (0) May 10, 2010 Minnesota
    Trader


    Based on your posts here you strike me as someone who is so wrapped up in his own crap that he is unable to see the actual issue.

    The tax increase is going to be a couple cents per pint. Even adding up the distributors margin and the retail margin it should only raise the price a quarter a beer or so. If your local bar raises the price $1 a beer that is them gouging you, not Shelton Brothers.

    Shelton Brothers wanted an illegal tax law fixed. Your comparison to your neighbor is more akin to you having put in a huge new addition to your house that raised the value by a bunch but not paying the tax on it. When your neighbor calls the county on it they are doing what is best for everyone by putting a level playing field out there.
     
  5. chcfan

    chcfan Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2008 California

    Hence the quotes...
    I never said it was the exact same situation, but it is in a similar vein to Stupac's examples.
     
  6. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    No, those things are legal, and in existence.

    The NY favoritism and inequality was illegal, and no longer in existence.
     
  7. chcfan

    chcfan Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2008 California

    No shit. I didn't remember arguing that point with you, but thanks for reminding me.
     
  8. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Initiate (0) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Trader

    it doesn't make me feel better, and yes it is my state's fault for having a silly law (although unconstitutional is always up for interpretation, that's why we have the courts system) and it is shelton bros fault for pointing it out. i still think that laws that promote the local economy are positive ones...we can agree to disagree on that point (though i really don't understand why anyone wouldn't be in favor of these kinds of regulations that ultimately promote more jobs and money in their local economy).

    i just don't see why having some compassion for people who's costs are going up is a problem and people would defend the way that shelton handled the whole thing (including calling out brooklyn). the end result is a crappy one. no one is a winner in this, so let those of us most effected by it be upset about it and vent our anger towards the catalyst. this is a message board for pete's sake...this is one of the few places that i can commiserate with my fellow NY'ers who will be affected by this. craft beer is growing at an incredible clip and there is lots of money to be made here...people are starting to take notice and eventually other local governments will see the $ to be made and i'm sure prices will go up all over. just sucks when it happens to you...and i'm certain it WILL happen to you.

    also if you really need a citation of the local news report, it was on Good Day NY probably around the 7:30am - 8:00am hour.
     
  9. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    It depends on the shape of the supply and demand curves. That determines what percent of the tax is passed on to the customer and what percent is eaten by the brewery. And what percent of the exemption is extra profit/savings for the customer.
     
  10. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (1,099) Dec 12, 2011 New York

    and now to interrupt this thread: just a small bit of data.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/28034.html

    at $0.14 / gallon, NYS is #37 out of 50 states. if you live in NYC, the $0.26 you would have to pay as a brewer would put you at #23 on the list. at #50 on the list is wyoming, at $0.02. i could not find any data on other states that allow in state tax breaks on brewing, so i dont know if the previous law had NYS brewers paying less taxes than everyone else in the country.

    no opinion here! just data.
     
  11. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    No problem, more than happy to get people focused on the topic at hand rather than non sequiturs.
     
  12. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    Thanks, good to know the claims of "we pay more taxes," were just posing from the uninformed.
     
  13. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Initiate (0) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Trader

    the actual issue that i see it here is that locally produced beer will cost more...am i missing something? please enlighten me.

    as for your wonderful math on the situation, as i mentioned...the local news reported that the net outcome will be about a dollar more a pint for locally produced beer. that is a significant hike.

    shelton bros were the fairness police on this one and i am not angry at them alone, i am also angry that loop holes in place to stimulate the local brewing economy were viewed as unconstitutional and taken away. shelton gained nothing from this except pissing off a lot of people...seems like a great way to do business. as for your level playing field argument, they don't exist in a capitalist society, there are dozens of laws and loopholes in place specifically designed to encourage business in one way or another (take a look at your tax form and look at all the opportunities to get deductions).

    ...but these "discussions" grow tiresome. i get it, you (and others) have no problem with what shelton bros did and how they handled it and you could care less that the cost of beer is going up for people in NY. those of us in NY (and elsewhere) think that the way shelton went about this accomplished nothing other than hurting consumers in the NY market and helped to continue shelton's stellar track record of pleasing the masses. we will not see eye to eye on this until beer prices go up in your home market.
     
    BBThunderbolt likes this.
  14. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    Yes, you either believe in the Constitution, or you don't.
     
  15. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Initiate (0) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Trader

    i don't necessarily agree with this. NY legislation decided to give tax breaks to stimulate local business. shelton decided to fight these as unfair and get those tax breaks overturned. the net increase to the end consumer (aka you, me, US) is a result of increased costs funneling through the system. we'll see how this all plays out, but even if a pint goes up a dime (cause bars charging $x.10 a pint is normal) i don't see a reason to be happy with shelton, the government, anyone.

    at this point i'm done arguing my point. you are unaffected by this, unless you trade with NY'ers or visit the town. who cares who is at fault? it is a crappy situation with no winners and shelton went through the system to make it this way so they are most certainly on the long list of those that will be blamed, but correct, they are not alone...but to say that they are void of guilt is turning a blind eye to what has transpired.
     
  16. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Initiate (0) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Trader

    do you really want to turn this into a debate about laws and the constitution and what is "fair"? where should we start? abortion? affirmative action? outsourcing/importing/exporting? gay marriage? the list goes on and on. this isn't about the constitution, this is about the price of beer. if you want to be a patriot fighting for the constitution there are WAY bigger fish to fry than this.
     
  17. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    Who said anything about being happy? I'm talking about who is adding the cost: NY legislature, NY bars.
    Everyone wins when we are all treated equally as far as I'm concerned.

    Shelton imposes no fees on NY related to this tax structure. Period. NY legislature imposes the tax, breweries charge the bars, the bars charge the consumers.
     
  18. woosterbill

    woosterbill Pooh-Bah (2,733) Apr 6, 2009 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah

    It's one thing to have policies that support investment in the local economy - e.g., low property taxes for businesses that choose to build in your town - and it's something entirely different to have laws that penalize non-locals. Your low property taxes can act as a magnet by being relatively lower than other municipalities', but they don't do anything to make non-local businesses worse off.

    Essentially, NY wasn't giving local breweries a tax break, they were imposing a discriminatory tax only on certain people doing business in the state and not on others. Would you think it was fair if the other 49 states saw that their breweries were being unfairly taxed in NY and chose to apply an additional tax ONLY to NY breweries exporting beer to their state? This would hurt the business of NY breweries, which would then lower the tax receipts of the state, which would then be likely to retaliate by raising the non-NY beer tax higher still, which would cause the other states to respond, and so forth. Discriminatory taxes between states are unconstitutional in order to prevent precisely this kind of back-and-forth escalation of taxation that could theoretically end up making it impossible for breweries anywhere to do business outside of their own states.

    It's fine to help your local economy by doing nice things for local firms, NOT by doing mean things to non-local firms who are legally conducting business in your area. There's a real difference.
     
    rlcoffey and Beerandraiderfan like this.
  19. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    Lets just talk about beer.

    What's there to debate? You either support discrimination or you don't. You want discrimination because it used to save you $3.50 on every keg of beer you buy in New York.

    Its not about the Constitution? Really, because that's what the NY court system and attorney general determined it was about. . .
     
  20. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Initiate (0) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Trader

    Yes.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.