Ale vs Lager

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by DriveFastDrinkSlow, Mar 19, 2014.

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  1. DriveFastDrinkSlow

    DriveFastDrinkSlow Initiate (0) Mar 19, 2014 Texas

    Hey fellow BAs. Newbie here. I was wondering if anyone could help explain to me what the difference is between ales and lagers. I know one is bottom fermented and one is top fermented, but what does that really mean to the experience the consumer has when drinking the beer? Why are the pricier beers almost exclusively ales? What would happen if the mash for an ale was fermented with lager yeast instead of ale yeast? Thanks, and cheers!
     
  2. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,301) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah Society

    The division between ale and lager is quite recent and is unfortunately based on partial knowledge and assumption.
    Technically ales are one family of British derived top fermented brewing.This was basically all British beer except Porter and its alias Stout.
    [​IMG]
    Other countries also brew using top fermenting , for example Kolsch in Germany but they don't call it an ale so why should anyone else inflict the name on it? In fact they call it a lager as it is lagered.
    Obergariges means top fermented
    [​IMG]
    Nowadays many people divide beer into top fermented which they call ales and bottom fermented which they call lagers. The problem is that it introduces connections which shouldn't be there and much of the garbage written about beer styles arises from these.
    There are those who tell me that what I say is then and now is now.The terms have been redefined they say.Well, yes perhaps.But it's as well to be aware of the shortcomings of this and consider it a rough and ready division with exceptions.
    What it means in terms of drinking experience is this. Ales and Porters/Stouts are warm fermented and this brings about many flavours from the yeast, basically esters.
    Lagers are cool fermented and focus mainly on the malt backbone , they are generally clean tasting and have a charm of their own.
     
    #2 marquis, Mar 19, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
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  3. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Welcome to the site. Up above your post is the word beer. Click on it. Then click on "Beer 101." You'll find the answer to lots of questions in there, including some you don't know yet that you'll have. :-) . Enjoy!
     
  4. Harnkus

    Harnkus Initiate (0) Oct 31, 2013 New York

    What you describe in fact sounds like two well deserved classes. I've read your POV on this many times and every time it seems you're not doing justice to your arguement, as you convince or rather confirm what I and my palate knew all along. There are ales and there are lagers and then there is altbier and Kolsch who provide disruption to either side of the point
     
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  5. markdrinksbeer

    markdrinksbeer Initiate (0) Nov 14, 2013 Massachusetts

    The information provided by the Bros in the beer 101 is wrong according to Marquis (as I have been told in previous posts when I directly copied and pasted information from that section of this site).

    Therefore, it is understandable why so many people don't align their definition with Marquis
     
  6. jageraholic

    jageraholic Maven (1,378) Sep 16, 2009 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I thought the major difference was in the yeast used. Ales use yeast that require warmer fermentations usually above 60 degrees which gives the ales flavors from the yeast in addition to the malt and hops, where lagers use yeast which use a cold fermentation usually around 40 degrees which also makes for a longer fermentation and a very clean taste mostly just from the malts and hops.
     
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  7. Dan114

    Dan114 Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2013 Massachusetts

     
  8. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    *Some* of the information from most any source you find will be wrong and some will be right. Sorting through it becomes part of the fun if you don't get too overly concerned with there being exact boundaries and fine lines that must not be crossed.

    Both the Bros and Marquis say pretty much the same thing, just with emphasis on different aspects of the distinction.

    There are two strains of yeast involved and two different sets of fermentation temperatures and associated fermentation times. Marquis chooses to focus on the temperatures and fermentation times and not give too much weight to the yeast strains. Others focus on the yeast strains and ignore the temperature ranges and fermentation time.

    And many from both sides of the discussion want all examples to be either/or and conclude that the other is wrong if they can provide a few counter examples.

    Well lots of things in the world have fuzzy boundaries and exceptions. If you go looking on the mountain side for the line on your map where it shows the transition from trees to non trees there will be a few trees in the non-tree sections and some empty spaces of land in the tree sections shown on the map. Does that mean the tree line doesn't exist or doesn't have meaning?
     
    #8 drtth, Mar 19, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  9. PSU_Mike

    PSU_Mike Initiate (0) Sep 6, 2013 Pennsylvania

    Just a question for homebrewers but has anyone ever made identical recipes up one using ale yeast and one using lager yeast and compared how they tasted?
     
  10. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I haven't done that specifically, but the lager will be much less estery, and cleaner in taste. There are some fairly clean ale strains, such as Wyeast 1007 and 1056.

    Microbiologist separate the yeast by DNA. They don't care about the brewing history so much. There are differences in lager yeasts due to the DNA, so there are the Saaz (Czeck) types and Frohberg strains. The Saaz type attenuated lass, and can leave more Diacetyl since it is a strong flocculator. Ale yeasts have differences too, as some have the POF gene, that includes the German Wheat beer strains and many Belgian strains.
     
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  11. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,651) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah Society

    This topic gives me a headache. On the one hand it's nice to have a shorthand for bottom fermented vs top fermented beer, on the other hand the terms used are either nondescript (ale) or descriptive yet not conclusive (lager beer).
     
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    “This topic gives me a headache.” Patrik, there is no need to get wadded up about this.

    “On the one hand it's nice to have a shorthand for bottom fermented vs top fermented beer” There is your ‘answer’ right there!:slight_smile:

    Cheers!
     
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  13. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,301) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It's worth bearing in mind that for a very long time yeast wasn't listed as an ingredient, it found its own way into the wort.Most wild yeast strains are top fermenting so early lagers were top fermented. Once brewers began fermenting at low temperatures the bottom fermenting strains coped better and were favoured. So eventually lagers were generally fermented with these strains.They aren't though the definers of lager brewing but the result of it.
    If you brew using a "lager" yeast at warm temperatures you don't get the characteristics of a lager , there will be more esters for example.Just as painting a door with yacht varnish doesn't transform the door into a yacht.
    In future the demands of the brewing industry may drive the microbiologists to create a bottom fermenting yeast which ferments warm and the whole basis of classification will fall apart.
    My chief concern is that the ale/lager divide is built on foundations of sand even though it's the received wisdom in many places.There are many beer families and to lump them together into two with disregard to their background just leads to misunderstanding and anomalies.Background is important, we've just had St.Patrick's Day when everybody with a hint of Irish in their background had cause for a celebration.
    I hope people will bear in mind that the classification has its shortcomings.
    But you use "ale" and "lager" yeasts as equivalents for top and bottom fermenters.Does stout use ale yeast too? The assumption is that you get an ale if you brew with an ale yeast. But you may get a Porter or a Kolsch instead.
     
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  14. jageraholic

    jageraholic Maven (1,378) Sep 16, 2009 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I'm doing that right now with an imperial stout. So far the differences are with the ale yeast I got a lot more dark fruit flavors in the, and with the lager yeast, I'm getting no dark fruit and all dark roasted flavors. But the lager just went to secondary so its a ways out for a final verdict.
     
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  15. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Yes it does not fit into the nice little boxes all the time. The Baltic Porter I make from time to time uses a bottom fermenting yeast. So is it still a Porter?
     
  16. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,301) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Of course it is. Porters derive from the beer family not the ale family.
     
  17. Tut

    Tut Initiate (0) Sep 23, 2004 New York

    Here we go with that quaint English idea that ale is not beer and the rest of the world simply doesn't know what it's talking about. Everywhere else it's understood that beer is the all encompassing name for the beverage we joined this website to discuss. Ales and lagers are the two broad families of beer, and each have many different individual beer styles. Porters, IPA's, Dopplebocks, Lambics, Hefeweissens, Pilsners, Belgian Triples, Wits, AAL's, Flemish Red Ales, English Bitters, etc., etc. are all BEERS

    If we accepted the peculiar English terminology, we would have to rename this site Beer and Aleadvocate, and that won't happen for reasons all but the English fully understand.
     
    #17 Tut, Mar 19, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  18. Tut

    Tut Initiate (0) Sep 23, 2004 New York

    My understanding is that it was misnamed Baltic Porter because of its similarity to porter ale, and the name stuck despite its being inaccurate. The result has fostered some confusion over the years. Since it's made with lager yeast and cold fermented, it falls in the broad Lager family of beer.
     
    #18 Tut, Mar 19, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  19. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Some are made with bottom fermenters, some with top fermenters.
     
  20. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Michael Jackson claimed to have originated the term "Baltic Porter" (and I believe him :wink: ) in the early 1990's, when he was researching and writing about the bottom fermented porters of the region. His book 1998 Beer (Ultimate Beer in the US) had a section entitled "Winter Warmers: Baltic Porters and Stouts", the text of which makes obvious he considers them basically the same "style". His last book, Beer- Eyewitness Companion, which he edited, calls them "...a Baltic porter that is known in the West as Imperial stout. These beers are usually bottom fermented..." [emphasis added]

    In other writings (some of which used to be on the Real Beer "Beer Hunter" pages, but I couldn't find it recently- I think the "Seach" function's not working properly) he suggested that they were bottom fermented simply because that was the yeast the breweries in the region typically used, and when they brewed a beer to mimic the UK-exported Imperial stouts, they just used their own house yeasts. Brewers in general just weren't as persnickety as many of the modern beer geekery about styles, ingredients and such. Lots of US ales and porters were also fermented with lager yeast in the pre-craft era.
     
    #20 jesskidden, Mar 19, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
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