Brett starter may have failed...read on...

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by atomeyes, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It certainly was not my intent to state that stir plates are mandatory.

    Jason chose to utilize a stir plate to propagate his Brett strains. I presume that he did this since he was of the opinion that introduction of oxygen (air) was beneficial in growing Brett yeast cells. He provided yeast cell count values in his blog.

    Cheers!
     
  2. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    so 1 week after pitching, i have a 1/2 to 1 inch pizza-dough-like krauzen. nice and white with a few awesome bubbles.
    so yeah, some pre-mature worrying on my part. i'm just used to brett starters resulting in visible fermentation within 24 hrs.
     
  3. chianski

    chianski Initiate (0) Aug 26, 2008 Canada (AB)

    For future reference, I think the cold crashing may have been your problem. Chad Yakobson, from the brettanomices project and Crooked stave brewery said in one talk (links to videos of that talk can be found in embrace the funk) that brett really dislike low temperatures and that tends to die when exposed to cold temperetures. My guess is when you cold crash it you killed a good amount of it so then you really underpitched and ergo the long lag time. I had a starter of brett clausenni i kind off forgot about for like two or three month in my closet at 70 F. after that time I pitched some new wort and pick up right a way. Last friday i brewed with that starter, had a nice krausen after 48 hrs.
     
  4. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    good to know.
    i've been told by 1-2 brett people in my city that you cold crash large starters to skim off the unwanted wort. i think that this was the 1st time i've done the cold crash.
    someone also tut-tutted me for not feeding the starter after 2 weeks. i'd like to have that discussion with Chad or someone, since i wonder out loud how long you can go without having to feed brett to keep the cell count sustained.
     
  5. phattysbox

    phattysbox Initiate (0) Apr 18, 2008 New York

    Hi All!

    So since species within Brettanomyces are yeast, and are in the same class as Saccharomyces, they require "essentially" the same nutrients as brewing yeast. In other words, they are budding yeast the predominantly use oxygen to grow and reproduce. Under anaerobic conditions it undergoes fermentation just like brewing yeast, although ti obviously produces a different set of metabolites. And like brewing yeast, it also is susceptible to the Custer effect - it will ferment in the presence of high glucose and oxygen.

    What this basically means - treat Brett as you would regular brewing yeast but be aware of the different metabolites produced (acetic acid and other funky stuff).

    So any starter that is made for two weeks is WAY too long in my opinion. By then all nutrients and substrate has been used up and the yeast are dying. The only source of food for cells that are surviving are from dying ones. Moreover, glycerol reserves become critically low since they are focused on surviving.

    The best time to pitch a starter, whether it is Brett or Sacch, is in exponential phase - which is usually 12-20 hours after the starter has begun. However, for homebrewers this stinks because no one wants to pitch 5 liters of starter wort into their beer. Cold crashing becomes a good compromise. However for Chad's work, I assume he continuous cultures of Brett needed for his beer. I disagree with the statement above that cold crashing kills Brett. Actually, keeping a starter going to two weeks is more detrimental since the cold slows metabolic activity and puts the yeast in a dormant state.

    Keep in mind that the point of a starter is to create biomass, which is stir plates are the best way to go. Reproduction works best in the presence of continuous oxygen.

    To the OP:

    Primary fermentation with Brett produces very little in the way of classic "Brett character" in my experience. What you get is a really complex ester flavor profile.

    http://sciencebrewer.com/2011/09/20/homebrew-review-100-brettanomyces-pale-ale/

    There is some funky character, but IMHO, the funk really comes out with age and time. Interestingly, my Brett starters always come out extremely funky and wild. I have a feeling this is due to the availability of oxygen.

    Best,

    Jason
     
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  6. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    Here's a slide from Chad's presentation. It's 8 days (for max cell count) at 82*F. He has observed three stages of growth.

    It not clear what his recommendation to HB'ers for storage is. But if there is a delay and one is worried about viability you can feed yeast without propagation. I always feed all (not the blended sours) yeasts about a pint of non-aerated wort before I pitch.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,406) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    Agreed with the rest, Brett benefits from aeration during growth. 1-2 weeks is fine, Brett is pretty tough to kill, not much worry about the population dropping significantly if you leave it for a week after growth is over. For awhile I kept a Brett culutre at room temperature, feeding it every few months, never had an issue.
     
  8. jamescain

    jamescain Initiate (0) Jul 14, 2009 Texas

    Brett still needs oxygen to ferment, although it can still ferment with low amounts of oxygen. In order to create a large healthy starter you need to give it lots of oxygen. When doing 100% brett beers treat the yeast as if its normal sacc yeast. The only difference would be maybe a little extra time for fermentation and pitch at lager numbers.

    When I pitch my brett (for 100% beers) I don't do any extra aeration of the wort but I will aerate the starters to propagate the number of cells.
     
  9. jamescain

    jamescain Initiate (0) Jul 14, 2009 Texas

    I would definitely have to agree with this statement. I would also like to add, and this is coming from Gabe Fletcher, truly funky brett aromas tend to start showing up after the brett has fermented under pressure. I'm not sure if this is coming from the added pressure of if it comes from time and the brett feeding off of the dying cells. Maybe something for you to look into?
     
  10. warchez

    warchez Zealot (533) Oct 19, 2004 Massachusetts

    Glycerol or glycogen?
     
  11. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    I assume glycogen.

    Isn't Glycerol what yeast make - well not Brett and that's why we use spelt, rye, etc
     
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  12. phattysbox

    phattysbox Initiate (0) Apr 18, 2008 New York

    Ooopss - glycogen.

    This is what happens when you work with a chemical for an extended period of time :wink:
     
  13. phattysbox

    phattysbox Initiate (0) Apr 18, 2008 New York

    Yup - I have talked to many professional brewers that have commented that pressure does play into the funk character.

    Actually, anything that stresses Brett will increase the wildness, at least from what I hear. This includes underpitching (one prominent brewer has mentioned as low as .2 million cells/ml wort/ degree Plato), high fermentation temps, vessel design, and pressure.
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    A few questions/comments concerning: “Actually, anything that stresses Brett will increase the wildness …”

    You mention “high fermentation temps” as a stress. It has always been my understanding that ‘regular’ yeast actually prefers to grow/ferment at high temperatures; as homebrewers we ferment our beers cooler than the yeast’s preferred temperatures since we don’t like the off-flavors (from a beer perspective) that can get created at high temperatures. Does Brett not like high temperatures like ‘regular’ yeast likes high temperatures?

    I have only brewed with Brett twice, using the Wyeast 3789 blend (a ‘regular’ Belgian Ale yeast and Brett). In both of those batches the beers turned out very funky. Would conducting a primary fermentation with ‘regular’ and Brett yeasts be considered stressful to the Brett? What in particular is the stressing ‘agent’ for this case?

    Cheers!
     
  15. phattysbox

    phattysbox Initiate (0) Apr 18, 2008 New York


    I meant that to be a blanket statement of what I've heard, from professional brewers and from second hand sources. I won't name any names but the overarching theme was that stress plays a role in Brett character. What this specifically is, I'm not sure. But pressure from the fermentation vessel itself could be one. To speculate on your question though - I think it is *possible*. This would occur if the regular brewing yeast is more active than the Brett and competes better. This would stress the Brett leaving less resources in the wort. The is all speculation so don't take my word for gold here.

    But think about it - many sources of stress produces off flavors with Saccharomyces, why couldn't the same be true for Brett? Moreover, what if we happen to covet those off-flavors as "wild funky character"? Again - speculation and fun to think about.
     
  16. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    No, I think that you're correct. 100% primary normal fermentation gives the clean, pineapple, clove (strain dependent though) and the off-flavors are the ones that's is normally associated w/Brett.

    But I did underpitch WLP 644 and it was clean.
     
  17. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    so how would one apply pressure when brewing at home?
     
  18. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,406) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    Bottle conditioning is a great way to boost Brett character. I know Gabe from Anchorage told me that his beers rarely have much Brett character before they go into bottles. I've had great luck pitching Brett at bottling, but that is risky in terms of over-carbonation.
     
  19. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    so then the next question:
    if brett is the primary yeast, should temperature matter?
    i'm currently fermenting in my basement. ambient temp is probably 65 F.
    i know it isn't much of a difference, but what if i bumped it up to 70 F?
    or what if i heat coiled it and let it ferment in the 80s?
     
  20. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,406) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    Just like brewer’s yeast, it’s highly strain dependent. Around 70 F (actual beer temperature) is usually a safe idea. However, I really liked White Labs’ Brett C up in the low 80s, very fruity-peach. On the other hand the same treatment with Wyeast Brett A gave me a beer that smelled like burnt rubber bands.
     
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