Tom Long, MillerCoors CEO, asks consumers to judge brewers by the quality of their beers

Discussion in 'Beer News' started by Todd, Dec 22, 2012.

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  1. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    Are we sure consistency is a good thing?

    Sometimes, sure, but not always.
     
  2. Johnnyramirez

    Johnnyramirez Initiate (0) Nov 17, 2012 California

    In the case of beer, consistency is good. Tastes are different. But consistency is what makes people come back to their old staple beers. If the flavor was always varied, why would you go back? And in the case of BCBS, consistency and larger scale production will happen, which likely couldn't happen at the same time before they were bought.

    Again though, BCBS may not be as good as everyone knows it now, but it will be consistent and more widely available
     
  3. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    Ask Dany Prignon.

    People keep going back to Fantôme, and I dont think he even thinks about consistency.
     
    Johnnyramirez likes this.
  4. tabascosigned

    tabascosigned Initiate (0) Oct 4, 2012 Virginia

    I judge MillerCoors by not buying their product (99% of the time...wink)...simple.
    If the masses want to drink their stuff, let 'em; who cares?
    ...especially if they enjoy it. I won't piss on someone else's happiness.
     
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  5. coreyfmcdonald

    coreyfmcdonald Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2008 Georgia

    Because they could potentially (and have in some cases) tried to limit the amount of craft beer that is available. When I say "they" here, I mean BMC in general.
     
    creepinjeeper likes this.
  6. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,651) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah Society

    My main problem with the BMC as a Swede would be their drive towards uniformity of beer styles, offering three basic types of beer, one mainstream adjunct lager with a low IBU, one light lager with high attenuation and a similarly low IBU and a higher abv malt liquor with more alcohol and a low IBU. Having grown up in Sweden and come of age in the late 2000s I don't detest the American macro brewers, they offer an alternative here in Sweden which is ligther in taste than the Swedish counterparts. Next to the Miller Genuine Draft or the Budweiser at 14 crowns a bottle I have a bottle of Samuel Adams at 16 crowns or a Bottle of Brooklyn lager at 17 crowns. Then I have a bunch of Swedish pale lagers at 11-15 crowns per 50cl can 33cl bottle.

    The choices are plentiful and I have never experienced a period of time where beer was limited to adjunct lagers (which Swedish lagers tended to be prior to the late 80s/early 90s). I thus find AAL's to be less pernicious than alot of American craft beer drinkers, I've always had choice, and so I've never felt as though I've had to choose one over the other. But if Swedish brewers started to brew their pale lagers with adjuncts and lowering their IBU levels to the low tens then I'd be concerned, I'd feel as though my ability to pick a beer I enjoy was being restricted.

    But as long as there is choice, I am able to pick a bunch of different pale Swedish macro lagers at 20ish+ IBUs, complemented by Swedish micro lagers at 30+ IBUs, Swedish micro IPAs etc, and then on to American adjunct macro lagers at 10 something IBUs, to German pilsners at 30IBUs, to Czech pilsners, to British pale ales, bitters, to American west coast IPAs and Pale Ales, to American craft lagers such as Sam Adams boston lager and Brooklyn Lager etc.

    I understand if an American out of principle wont touch the American macro lagers since they have, without question, contributed to a dumbing down of the flavor profile of pale lager or adjunct lager beer over the last century. But this also means that we will have very different experiences when it comes to lager beer across the pond, and differing opinions as to the taste and worthiness of American adjunct lagers. A style which I happen to enjoy alongside all the others.
     
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  7. Johnnyramirez

    Johnnyramirez Initiate (0) Nov 17, 2012 California

    Well played. It is 1 very good example. But I think as a whole consistency is good for beer. But I completely see your point
     
  8. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    I do think consistency is important, it just isnt the end all and be all as some like to use it in these discussions. Consistency is not quality. As the example I gave shows. If a beer is a regular, always available release, consistency makes sense. But for periodic released beers, I dont see why the 2012 "vintage" should taste like the 2011 or 2010.

    In the high end wine world, no one expects consistency. Same for things like single barrel bourbons. Same for some beers.

    In fact, this might help define that craft vs non. If you are measuring "quality" by things like consistency, or other manufacturing terms, you are a factory brewer, not a craft brewer. If you are measuring "quality" by things like flavor, you are a craft brewer. That doesnt mean craft brewers arent also trying for consistency (although they may not be), it means it isnt their measure of quality.

    Think of some other craft, like blacksmithing. The craftsman smith is making individual products that may or may not be consistent. They have mostly been replaced by industrial processes that strive for consistency.
     
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  9. DogTown

    DogTown Initiate (0) May 17, 2006 California

    As a professional brewer I see the term Quality merely as a chosen point on a curve. The X axis is Time and the vertical Y axis is Flavor.

    The curve descends from maxY at timeX=0 to minimumY at timeX=maximum.

    As a brewer you pick your point on that governing curve and to the extent you achieve your goal, you are brewing Quality.

    Want maxY flavor? Drink it at timeX=0.

    You want to be able to leave the beer in the garage for three months without worrying about flavor problems? Be prepared to accept minimum flavorY= ~0. It is only good sense.

    If you give that a little thought the quality thing kind'a evaporates...

    MC and ABI make the beer they do because bazillions of humans seem to prefer to be able leave their beer in the garage. Years ago they made BlueMoon almost by accident and then by accident they kept making it and today they seem smart as a result. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. I'm ok with the idea, if you buy into that basic idea of Quality, that we AND Coor's can make Quality Beers.

    As a professional brewer I am really bugged by this whole BA name-calling thing and also bugged by the big brewers pouty responses.... but then, whatever.

    I feel that this whole 'debate' is a ridiculous thing for the board of the BA to have engaged in. It gave the 'would-be' victims genuine 'victim' status and provided a pedestal for them from which to make the statements you have reprinted here. The BA provided them with the identity. You provided these brewers with their business. Mine too.

    Those 'victim' statements are well designed to 'take the high road' and cloud the dialogue with reasonableness. The discriminations made be by the BA provided the basis for the victim's own claim of 'authenticity'. I detest that word. It is as meaningless as Craft Beer has become or as Organic now is. In the end Craft is as Craft does. Craft is like pornography that way. One knows it when one sees it.

    I'd suggest that this BA (BeerAdvocate) take the term Craft back from the world of brewers who would wear it like a clown suit and simply support what you like- and if you want to call that craft, then that is your's to do. Whenever you hear a brewer, or worse yet; an organization, try to assume the robe, you should assert your souverign rights to the term 'Craft' and be your own word police.

    For the record; Our Chicago distributor was recently bought by a very interesting and cool distributor who also distributes MC's quality products. MC thought for a moment, maybe longer (maybe still) that they would try to prevent the transaction. Why? You would have to ask them. But, give it a little thought...

    Another thing is that when you read the words of Steve Hindy, whether you agree or disagree, you are reading the words of the modern day counterpart of the fuckin founder of Miller, or of AB, or of Guiness, or of Pabst. When you read the words of a most high senior manager of MC or ABI, you are only reading the words of a very sucessful manager, nothing more. Think about it a little bit...

    At a recent NYC talk I said that fish swim in water but they probably have no idea what water is. What is the water then that surrounds us today in the American beer scene? What is it that we are not seeing completely?

    Craft brewing is a living thing that is not describable and can not be claimed, and most of all can not be defended. I think it 'just is' in the same way that rock-and-roll just fuckin is and, like pornography, you know it when you hear it. That is all that I have to say about that. Happy New Year, yous.
     
  10. otispdriftwood

    otispdriftwood Initiate (0) Dec 9, 2011 Colorado

    Comparing macro beer to craft beer using quality as your measurement is like comparing apples and oranges. The "quality" of the product is entirely subjective to the person assessing that "quality". As others have stated previously, the macros produce consistent beer, which is interpreted by its supporters as a quality product. The crafts produce more flavorful beer, which also can be interpreted by its supporters as a quality product. Unless you say that the macros use inferior raw ingredients, it's still a "quality" product and if they do use inferior raw ingredients, is it possible to produce a consistent product? IMO, only someone directly involved in the start to finish macro brewing process can answer that question so don't bother unless you are.

    Next question: If Coors did label Blue Moon as brewed by Coors and not try to make people think it was brewed by a small brewer, would you buy it? If ABInBev labeled Shock Top as brewed by AB, would you buy it? I think not.
     
  11. fox227

    fox227 Initiate (0) Nov 19, 2010 California

    Let's say you have a person (me) who has never tried a Coors beer more than one time, and I tell you that I hated it. But then you tell me that it's "quality" because it's the same every time! Well, why would I want the same beer I hated every time? Yikes. I guess then by your definition I don't like "quality."
     
  12. Snowrs

    Snowrs Initiate (0) Oct 10, 2009 Indiana

    No you don't like that quality product. You could set the worlds best Foie Gras in front of me and I would not eat it. Not because it is not a quality product but because I don't like the taste and texture.
     
  13. mcintire78

    mcintire78 Initiate (0) Dec 16, 2006 Massachusetts
    Trader

    This is really the main point. The guy can't ask people to judge beer solely by what's in the glass while trying as hard as possible, behind the scenes, to make sure that the only thing you can get in your glass comes from his company.
     
  14. pghlee

    pghlee Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2006 Georgia

    A lot of BAs are in the beer business and i would say most would never buy BMC products no matter how good the beer gets. I try and spend our money with people we know,its that simple
     
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  15. TheBeerDad

    TheBeerDad Initiate (0) Sep 6, 2012 Michigan

    Why do I always get a headache when I read things like that...
     
  16. HipsterBrewfus

    HipsterBrewfus Initiate (0) Jun 3, 2012 Maryland

    This guy must have some huge balls to defend his piece of shit product. I find it hard to believe that anyone drinks a Coors and says "THIS IS A REALLY GOOD BEER!"

    We DO judge you by quality, and your quality is garbage.
     
  17. Snowrs

    Snowrs Initiate (0) Oct 10, 2009 Indiana

    Sigh..... Inconceivable! This thread reminds me of The Princess Bride
     
  18. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    See my comment above, consistency != quality.
     
  19. Snowrs

    Snowrs Initiate (0) Oct 10, 2009 Indiana

    That is your take on Quality, from an engineering and product based background, meeting specific values set forth in the product description every time is the definition of quality. Lets use your example. If you purchased A bottle of Pliny but got a beer that had much less hop character yet still an excellent beer you would light these boards up with complaints. Once you have branded a product the customer has a reasonable expectation of said product.

    A Coors tastes the same EVERY time, I can go into a bar and order a Coors and know exactly what to expect, and to its target customer that is the exact taste they want, any deviation would be a lack of quality on their part even if it was a perfect beer to a craft drinkers pallet.
     
  20. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    No I wouldnt. You clearly dont know me. Its almost as bad as the idiots who say I still buy BCBS, even though I dont drink stouts.

    Once again, Dany Prignon.

    As I also said, it is the difference between industrial brewing and craft brewing, IMO. Industrial brewing considers consistency to be quality, because that is the kind of things factory managers look at. But that is not how craftsmen measure quality.

    Considering I am an engineer, that is my background.
     
    jacksback likes this.
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