Styles that American brewers just haven't nailed

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by OneDropSoup, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. eric5bellies

    eric5bellies Pooh-Bah (2,144) Jun 9, 2006 Australia
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I guess by "nailed" you mean replicate ?

    Flanders Oud Bruin
    Quadrupel
    Tripel
    Belgian IPA
    Dubbel
    Champange Beer
    Saison
    Faro
    Sahti
    Berliner Weissbier
    Eisbock
    Braggot
     
  2. StoutOne

    StoutOne Initiate (0) Jan 16, 2009 New York

    I totally agree with this point. I have yet to have an American Weiss beer that holds a candle to the Germans
     
  3. brureview

    brureview Pooh-Bah (2,659) Jan 20, 2012 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Jack's Abby also brews an excellent Doppelbock- the Saxonator.
     
  4. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany
    In Memoriam

    And those are hardly considered top of the line here in Bayern...
     
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  5. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Permit me to tell a story... :wink:

    Before anyone books their flight to Hamburg in search of the numerous fresh local versions of hoppy Northern German pilsners like Jever, I have some news for them...they're not going to find ANY. Even now, Jever is an anomaly among German beers, and it is BY FAR the hoppiest pils on the market there.

    Any claims, therefore, that U.S. beers such as Prima Pils have "nailed" the Northern German pils are specious at best. It's a bit like saying Mikkeller "nailed" the U.S. DIPA with its 1000 IBU because it approximates the hoppiest U.S.-brewed beer of that vast style.

    It's fine to be opinionated on matters such as these (believe me, I know!), but it's better to be informed as well.
     
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  6. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Jever ain't what it used to be. A local brewery owner went to school in Germany 20+ years ago, and also says it has lost a lot since then. If the guys from Victory targeted the beer they had when in school in Germany, what's the problem? You can run into old references where Jever is said to be 49 or 50 IBUs. Not anymore, maybe high 30s.

    If I make a Berliner Weisse and just have lactic, is that the way becasue that is Kindl Weisse? I remember drinking Schultheiss back in the day that also had Brett going on. Should I get dinged for making a beer that was made, but is no longer in production?

    Just saying things change, and beers change.
     
  7. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    No problem at all. My point -- and the OP's as well -- was about beer styles, not individual examples. Jever is neither representative of the Northern German pilsner style in its old incarnation nor in its new one. Despite what the BJCP Guidelines might say, Jever was, and is, an anomaly among German beers, and any attempt to approximate it (much less "nail the style"), regardless if it's 50 IBUs or 30, is going to be an anomaly among the German Pilsner style as well.
     
  8. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    ...in other words, there's a lot more involved in "nailing" a style -- or even a single exemplar of a style -- than approximating its most anomalous aspects.
     
  9. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Haven't had a Flensburger in about 4 years, those used to be pretty assertive also. There was one I had while on my only trip to Berlin, which was also very assertive - wish I could remember that one.
     
  10. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Like Jever, Flensburger has fallen off in recent years. There is a beer called Dithmarschen Pilsner that's probably a good representative of what Flensburger used to taste like (and a solid representation of the Northern German Pils style), but even it has nothing close to the bitterness of a Jever.
     
  11. daviddoughan

    daviddoughan Initiate (0) Dec 13, 2012 New York

    Ommegang Three Philosophers and Allagash Four are both Quads I like.
     
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Ah, a spirited discussion on German Pilsners!

    Firstly, permit me to opine that there are two issues that can often get conflated: geography and time.

    Geography: Northern Germany historically and present day would brew Pilsners that are more hoppy than the Pilsners of Southern Germany.

    Time: Not too long ago (in other words within the timeframe of my lifetime), the Pilsners in Germany were much more hoppy then they are today. Even the Pilsners of Southern Germany were hoppy 30 years ago.

    Below is something I wrote in a beermail to Aaron (BA yemenmocha):

    “On the topic of hoppiness in a German Pilsner there seems to be a few ‘vocal’ folks on BA who have strong opinions that US craft breweries do not know how to properly brew German style Pilsners. They proclaim that the US Pilsners are too hoppy and the US brewers don’t know what they are doing. Well, there has been a marked trend in Germany over the past 30-40 years to use less and less hops in brewing Pilsners. This trend is documented in The Oxford Companion to Beer: In 1973 the average German Pilsner have a bitterness of 34 IBUs, in 2008 the average bitterness was 26.5 IBUs. I don’t know what the average would be 2012 but I am confident that it is even lower than 26 IBUs.

    From the book: “In the style guidelines for the prestigious World Beer Cup competition, German Pilsner is still defined as having 30-40 IBUs, but the German brewers themselves have allowed the snappy hop character of pilsner to erode.”

    How is this for ‘irony’, Victory Prima Pils was based upon the two owners of the brewery (Ron Barchet and Bill Covaleski) experiences in Germany. They both trained in Germany to learn how to brew. They decided when they opened Victory Brewer in 1996 to make a ‘traditional’ German Pilsner like they drank in Germany. Well, if you go to Germany today you will likely find 20 IBU Pilsners while Victory is brewing Pilsners like Ron and Bill drank ‘back in the day’. It sort of makes you wonder what the word “traditional” means in the context of German Pilsners.”

    In a reply I made in another (related) thread I purposely used the word “consistent” in: “Prima Pils is hopped at a level consistent with Northern German Pilsners.” In reality, Prima Pils is based upon a Southern German Pilsner circa 1980s:

    “Owner Ron Barchet began the evening from the head table presenting the history of Victory’s brewing with a visual overhead slideshow. The brewery’s roots can be traced back to Barchet’s time spent in the Tettnang region working and learning about German beer brewing. In fact, it was a taste of Waldhaus Pils that first led him down the road of exploration and yearning to know more about the process of brewing what became his favorite beer.”

    So, there you have it. Prima Pils is a ‘traditional’ Southern German Pilsner similar to Waldhaus Pils as brewed 30 years ago.

    I do like me some ‘traditional’ German Pilsners!:slight_smile:

    Cheers!

    P.S. The continuing ‘dumbing down’ of Jever from a hops perspective is sad state of affairs in my opinion. I started drinking Jever about 8-10 years ago and even other those years the beer has been a ‘diminishing’ beer.:slight_frown:
     
  13. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I am feeling the pull of Germany again... need to get back.

    The Classic American Pilsners that I first tasted from Jeff Renner instantly tranported me back to being a tyke and stealing sips off of beers my dad had (probably Drewrys and other smaller brands). The flavor memory was identical in the far recesses of my reptilain brain. Of course these beers are not made commercially today in the US, except for the occasional one here and there. The better ones are probably about 3 times as bitter as a BMC premium beer and have more flavor and aroma hops. I fear the German brewers have started down the same road.
     
  14. raoulduke37

    raoulduke37 Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2008 California

    Saisons. Seriously, what's with the high IBU's? Except for Logsdon, of course. He's the man.
     
  15. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,030) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It's called Dampfbier, Maisel's makes one (even though BA labels it an Alt), and it was good when last available here in the U.S.

    Looks like Zwiesel makes it too.
     
  16. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,030) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    From page 3 of this thread -- in case you're thinking of "American Pale Wheat Ale," as opposed to Bavarian Hefeweizen. If you are referring to a good Bavarian-style Hefeweizen, look no further than Sierra Nevada.
     
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society


    “I fear the German brewers have started down the same road.”

    Jeff, I have that same fear! It has been a while (9 months?) since I bought a six-pack of Jever. Last spring I was able to find a Jever that was only a couple of months old. I thought: Woo-Hoo! A fresh Jever!! I have never been able to find a Jever that was less than 5-6 months old before. As I drank those beers I was disappointed; they tasted like a ‘ghost’ of how they used to taste. I now see Jever on the shelf and think: what a shame, only a few years ago that was a vibrant Pilsner. Instead of buying Jever I pick up a six-pack of Sly Fox Pikeland Pils (or a Victory Prima Pils, Troegs Sunshine Pils, Stoudt’s Pils, etc.).It seems weird to me that in order to buy a ‘traditional’ Pilsner (a beer like they made in Southern Germany 30-40 years ago or Northern Germany just a few years ago) I need to purchase a US craft brewery’s version of a German Pilsner.

    Cheers!

    Jack

    P.S. Needless to say but I am a big fan of CAP beers. I have one batch in the lagering chamber and another fermenting.
     
  18. kwakwhore

    kwakwhore Maven (1,413) Nov 1, 2004 North Carolina
    Trader

  19. kegster

    kegster Initiate (0) Dec 5, 2005 California

    Rauch Beer. I have not had anything that comes close to Schenkerla.
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Sly Fox makes a very good Rauchbier. Unfortunately it is a draft only product and Sly Fox has limited distribution (PA, NJ, and NY).

    Cheers!

    P.S. Iron Hill Brewpub (multiple locations in PA and DE) also makes a very good Rauchbier.
     
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