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Bad feedback retaliation

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk & Help' started by chippo33, Jul 30, 2014.

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  1. chippo33

    chippo33 Advocate (605) Vermont Feb 29, 2012

    I just had someone back out of a trade on me after I took multiple trips to the brewery to buy all these bottles for him over the past few months. He obviously deserves bad feedback. Is there any system set up on this site to protect me from receiving retaliation feedback from this individual (which will harm my reputation)?
     
  2. cfh64

    cfh64 Advocate (730) Texas Aug 16, 2005

    So I assume both of you already accepted trade requests?
     
  3. chippo33

    chippo33 Advocate (605) Vermont Feb 29, 2012

  4. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Champion (795) Washington May 21, 2013

    Good question - i've always wondered about this.
     
  5. cfh64

    cfh64 Advocate (730) Texas Aug 16, 2005

    I'm going to assume your answer is yes and I have the same question. I honestly haven't used the trade feedback system all that much since it became available but I have been diligent about using it over the past couple of months and will continue to do so, its there for a reason.

    Having said that, I also wonder what would happen if we both agree to a trade, I send out a trade request and xyz trader ends up backing out before shipping. Sure I can give a bad rating and try to explain myself with 120 characters (whatever it is) or less but what prevents the other trader from doing the same? Doesn't that essentially go back to posting a "bad trader" thread where it becomes a "he said, she said" type of deal where there is no definitive answer and both traders get a bad rep except now it is reflected on their trading status no matter whether they were right or wrong?

    Honest question, I'm trying to incorporate the system with every trade I do but I'm honestly not that familiar with it. Sorry I never answered your question OP, perhaps I just clarified it. Hopefully one of the MODS will chime in.
     
  6. chippo33

    chippo33 Advocate (605) Vermont Feb 29, 2012

    Without some type of protection system, no one is going to leave the appropriate bad feedback in fear of ruining their own reputation. I understand some people don't care, but I have over 100 feedback, and the individual who backed out of a promised trade has around 10, so my appropriate feedback wouldn't harm him as much as his retaliation would harm me.
     
    cfh64 likes this.
  7. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,515) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    We discussed this during development. The only way around this would be to not display or apply any feedback until both parties have left feedback, however, even then someone could edit their feedback once posted. And the only way around that would be to disable being able to edit feedback once posted.

    We've yet to get any reports of people abusing the system (which would result in an instant ban).
     
  8. Mag00n

    Mag00n Savant (390) New York Nov 21, 2008


    Id say it would harm him more. I see a trader with 10 feedback and 1 negative, I probably wouldnt bother. If I see someone with over 100 and 1 negative, Id still consider it. I agree with you though, its a tough situation and a very real possibility that theyll retailate. If I was you Id probably just leave neutral and type out what happened, although I get why youd want to leave negative.
     
    cavedave likes this.
  9. Please leave the negative feedback and explain the best that you can so you can warn others of this trader. If he retaliates, start a bad trader/beware of thread with your side of the story, tag him, and link to that thread from your profile post (I always check my potential trade partner's profile). With your many good feedback, any trader would be curious about the story of the single negative one and would be satisfied with a bad/retaliatory trader thread.
     
    treznor, blue-dream, Yohann and 5 others like this.
  10. markgugs

    markgugs Champion (980) New Jersey Dec 20, 2006

    this

    I'd trade with @chippo33 in a second. This other guy? (hopefully it's not someone I've already traded with, lol). Not a chance.
     
    mythaeus likes this.
  11. Let us know what you picked up and what you were trading for. Maybe others can help make it right.
     
    ufmj likes this.
  12. markgugs

    markgugs Champion (980) New Jersey Dec 20, 2006

    not to mention @chippo33, anyone with the trade reputation you have would typically be afforded a "benefit of doubt" situation. For example, I'd certainly speak with you, you'd likely explain what happened via BM, and that would suffice.

    But perhaps a simple fix here is timestamping the feedback, down to the minute. It would be easy to see which came first, the chicken or the egg.
     
  13. huskermike12

    huskermike12 Savant (460) Iowa Nov 14, 2011

    I think Todd's answer is very telling unless I'm reading between the lines and am wrong. If he leaves you negative feedback I assume that would qualify as abusing the system.
     
  14. chippo33

    chippo33 Advocate (605) Vermont Feb 29, 2012

    I feel bad giving anyone negative feedback, but his reason was that "we don't see eye to eye". Not seeing eye to eye is a perfectly common occurrence on the trade forums, but thats why you either move on and don't commit to a trade, or try and work something else out. This is after we both officially agreed on a specific trade and he was to ship out today. He sent me paypal to try and refund me for the 7 growlers I just filled (the trade involved bottles released over the past few months, and growelrs), but I declined the sent payment on principal. He told me that he doesn't care if I leave him negative feedback.
     
  15. MattOC

    MattOC Savant (320) Massachusetts Jan 13, 2013

    I'm nowhere near as prolific of a trader as some of you on here, but I got dinged with bad feedback AFTER I had left great feedback for a person I had traded with before. I was quite caught off guard and annoys me every time I see it in my profile. IMO it was not warranted either, but now it's there and nothing can change it.

    @chippo33 I would leave the negative feedback. Like many on here have said, although I don't know you, your rep would speak for itself in spite of someone being vindictive even though they were at fault.
     
  16. Doesn't surprise me seeing who it was leaving the feedback. Yeah, that sucks.
     
  17. Not to highjack OP's thread, but I gotta admit I'm curious. The difference b/t your feedback left and hers is pretty significant, and seems harsh that you've gotten dinged from what appeared to be from your feedback a successful trade.
    Can you enlighten me on what the hell happened there?

    I'd be REAL pissed if I got dinged for a trade I wasn't aware had gone bad. One of the realities of the feedback system is that it DOES in fact matter...a great deal in fact to me and I would guess other BAs like @markgugs, @cfh64, @mythaeus and some of the other regulars you see in these threads.
     
    blue-dream and mythaeus like this.
  18. Mag00n

    Mag00n Savant (390) New York Nov 21, 2008

    Gotta agree with this. Negative feedback should only be left for people who steal from you or otherwise commit some dubious behavior(possibly like in the op of this thread). Seems like MattOc should have gotten neutral at the absolute worse(dont know whole story though)
     
  19. Don't know why it bothers me so much, but her feedback suggests problems on both ends. If she goofs too, I'm thinking neutral (at worst). Dunno the whole story, but this one bothers me.
     
    mythaeus likes this.
  20. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Champion (795) Washington May 21, 2013

    I think this situation also applies to the "ok" feedback. I've done some trades where I feel like "ok" is appropriate but went ahead with "good" out of retaliation fear. I don't see anyone using the "ok" feature and assume many people do the same. That's often less clear cut than "good" or "bad" and I doubt anyone would be accused of abusing the system for leaving a retaliative "ok."
     
    Dactrius likes this.
  21. Oh hell, it's bothering me too! There's no way 1 side can be very happy with the trade and the other one was so unhappy that would result in a negative. From the comment, it seems both sides are responsible. I'm guessing there was some unmet expectation that wasn't communicated in the first place.
     
  22. I don't know, my friend. I can see a "Neutral" if neither side incurred any cost due to trade commitment (via accepted trade request and communications). In this case, the OP had to put up his own money and made multiple trips to get the beers specifically for the trade. That's something I don't want to see happen to me, you, or any other trader and warrants a negative feedback in my opinion.
     
    blue-dream likes this.
  23. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Champion (795) Washington May 21, 2013

    Sorry - I wasn't clear. I agree this case is "negative". I meant that the retaliation problem applies to cases of neutral feedback as well.
     
  24. Ahhhh...agreed in that case!
     
  25. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Savant (370) Iowa Dec 4, 2010

    Chippo33, you stated that he offered to reimburse you via PP but you refused it due to principle. Big question...Was it a full reimbursement he was offering? Partial? If partial, how much did he offer to reimburse? Could you provide both actual dollars & percentages, if possible?

    Given that he offered reimbursement, negative fb seems harsh. I'm not certain I'd even leave neural fb if substantial reimbursement was offered.

    The OP refused reimbursement but that's (imo) on the OP. Chippo33, that comment isn't intended to be snarky.

    Also, on what principle did you refuse reimbursement? You're justifiably piqued at having bought beer you neither need nor want so why not let him reimburse you & make it as right as possible?

    Negative fb wouldn't automatically rule someone out for me, especially if it was 1 out of 100. Stuff happens. Even good people can find themselves hopelessly entangled with some schmuck fuck then boom! FB is permanently stained.
     
    Mag00n likes this.
  26. chippo33

    chippo33 Advocate (605) Vermont Feb 29, 2012

    We set up the trade, and last minute he asked me to go get him growlers to fill out the 12 bottle shipper (these were not part of the official trade), saying that he would paypal me the money for the growlers. The trade was for bottles that I had gone to the brewery several times to acquire as their releases happened. He was going to send me the money for the growlers either way.

    I didnt accept the payment because A: I didnt want to him to pay me for something he wasn't getting, even though I already went up and filled them and purchased them, and B: I didn't want him to use the excuse that he payed me for my troubles when in fact it was much more than just those last minute growelrs to fill out the box that I got screwed on.
     
  27. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Savant (370) Iowa Dec 4, 2010

    Thanks. Your explanation makes sense. So, in fact, he only offered partial recompense.

    Which beers did he have you acquire? What reasons did he give for bailing & at the 11th hour, too? (He sounds like an unmitigated douche.)
     
  28. So, what's the guy's handle?
     
  29. First and foremost, I know there's always two sides of story, but to get negative feedback from a trader you have traded with before and left positive feedback for them seems whacked. I'd love for you to BM the story as I'm curious as well. That just doesn't seem right. A lot of us take pride in trading and receiving the appreciate feedback deemed worthy, I know I do.

    In your case, I'd be more apt to not trade with the person who left you negative feedback, assuming it was left "malisously".

    Second @chippo33 ...anyone who has done over 100 trades gets my respect and the benefit of the doubt if I came across a " negative" feedback that was left in retaliation. It sucks because I'd never want that in my feedback as well.
     
  30. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Savant (370) Iowa Dec 4, 2010

    Dmbforever, the trader that left bad fb for MattOC seems to be a confirmed whack job, chronic whiiiner & all around pita as well as generally unpleasant. I looked up some of her posts after getting a heads up on her & she's definitely someone I'd rather avoid.
     
  31. iwantmorehops

    iwantmorehops Savant (360) Vermont Sep 25, 2010

    Apparently feedback can be edited, might seem petty, but I sure wouldn't leave a glowing review like yours up for someone that gave you negative for no real reason.

    Edit: and after the second trade? WTF??

    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/edit-beer-trade-rating.199760/
     
  32. MattOC

    MattOC Savant (320) Massachusetts Jan 13, 2013

    I think this is an important topic and I definitely felt the sting that's why I chimed in. I'll never get my 100% approval back, but I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie on this.

    @iwantmorehops I left mine first.
     
    jshusc likes this.
  33. somewhere the truth needs to be told here
    initial trade was as requested by Matt @MattOC 2 Dinner for Brother Soigne
    We were going to Hill Farmstead so I offered to complete the trade
    I asked if he wanted anything else as I was not buying everything that I could
    Matt said he wanted Le Sarrasin - this is a $30 bottle
    We went back and forth about what I would get He offered FW XVII which he priced at $20
    at that point he is under.
    I can't find anything on his gots
    my quote 'it sounds good we can work out the minor differences but I will go up with the intention of grabbing you a BS and sarrasin' I rush this as I have a HF trip and want to make sure Matt gets his beer despite not really been offered a beer I want.
    my next communication is on Saturday night after we had driven all day to Hill Farmstead telling him that I had his beer.
    He stated he was coming round and we met for the trade
    at this point there had been no further communication about evening things up
    and to be honest I had been thinking of the two trades separately
    2 dinner - 1 anna
    sarrasin a- XVII plus a $10 deficit - either way $6- $10 deficit.

    Matt turns up and gives the dinner, XvII and a 2012 BCBS - no comment only those bottles
    I have the Anna, the Sarrasin and two extras for him- two stouts not from New england
    He leaves and I start thinking wait what happened where was the discussion on the gap.
    So I drop a BM and make a gentle hint about perhaps if we trade in future we can even things up.
    Not militant at all.
    total silence. I discuss this with another trade partner in theoretical and he suggests I try to clarify.
    I did message Matt trying to get some clarification and he said he felt the trade was finished and that was that and if I was unhappy leave negative feedback.
    at no time did Matt really clarify he was dropping the BCBS as the evener, I did not ask for a BCBS and I have lots of 2013 and a 2012 in my cellar. and most trades I have been in have added an extra or mentioned not giving one. I have also myself given BCBS as extras.
    Matt gave feedback because he got the exact beers he wanted and got extras, I had gone out of my way to give him Sarrasin.
    I on the other hand ended up with a beer I didn't ask for that wasn't clear if it was an extra or a make up beer as part of the trade.
    I reached out two times to try to sort it out without making negative feedback.
    This thread is about retaliation - people keep asking why bad traders are mentioned in threads and not dealt with in feedback this is why. I had a trade that didn't work out as it should and I mentioned my deficit in the feedback which wasnt necessary of me.
    I was very busy and did not follow through on the discussion of how to even it up but I wanted to try and figure out what Matt wanted before my visit as beers don't last at HF.
    If it was that bad Matt could have said lets just go with the Anna/Dinner trade I would have been fine with that.

    Because I gave negative feedback and Matt brought this up people are trashing me in this thread. Why don't you look at my feedback and reach out to my trading partners and ask if I have been in any way unreasonable in my trading.
    This is retaliation this is intimidation for anyone considering giving negative feedback.
    If you dont like me put me on ignore, don't trade with me, really do you have to resort to this?
     
  34. Wow, kind of hard to follow the thought process in the paragraphs? above but it seems as if you were headed to HF already and weren't out a trip or expenses as you would have been there even if there wasn't a trade setup.

    I cant really tell what the trade was for. 2 Dinner and a La Sarrasin for a Brother Soigne and XVII? Seems very hard to follow and/or tell who is in the wrong here.
     
  35. Agreed with @PA-Michigander here... this is very difficult to follow... you said "2 Dinner for Brother Soigne" and then later said "2 dinner-1 anna" ?

    Confused, this didn't help at all to clarify what happened... but if you continuously reached out to him (after the trade) to try to clarify this and he didn't bother responding, I don't think that helped... if everything here is accurate... again, this was very confusing...
     
    PA-Michigander likes this.
  36. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Savant (370) Iowa Dec 4, 2010

    It was 2 separate trades (in your mind at least) yet the trade request was clearly for what was the 1st trade. No separate trade request had been made for the 2nd trade.

    Sooo, I'm baffled as to why you left bad fb on a trade that went as it should.

    Now this 2nd trade...You should have made a 2nd trade request & formalized that BEFORE leaving negative fb. Perhaps if you had done that you wouldn't have had unmet expectations & left an unnecessary smear on someone's fb. Frankly, the bad fb reflects more poorly on you than it does on him, imo.
     
  37. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Savant (370) Iowa Dec 4, 2010

    Pfft. You're on a public forum, engaging in public discussions & activities. The fb you chose to leave is publicly accessible. IF you don't like this discussion just ignore it...Don't trade with anyone here, ie take your own advice.

    Now everyone has their buttons. Myself, I cannot abide whiiiiners who can dish but can't deal.
     
    Seanniek91 and RKing44 like this.
  38. writing this down clarified it for me - sorry above I wrote Anna when I meant Soigne.
    The trades became linked.
    initial trade 2 dinner 1 brother soigne
    that was agreed upon
    we started talking about getting Matt Sarrasin and Matt started talking about $4$.
    so he carried $4 of the dinner to the Sarrasin trade. Which left $6 uneven. Matt closed this out with the BCBS 2012.
    That wasn't made clear I did try to reach out

    Matt replied about adding BCBS but didn't take the time to add how he felt the $4$ added up, finishing with just leave me neg feedback.
    Matt never contacted me about the feedback to try to figure if we could resolve this belatedly instead he takes this here.

    I still feel that the terms of the trade changed to offer less than originally and closed it out with an bottle that I really didn't want without any discussion. a quick layout of how the trades evened up in Matt's mind would have stopped this.
    The original deficit is probably mute but I still got screwed over.
    I will try to change the feedback to neutral but it isn't unreasonable to say this trade changed midway for the worse for me and closed out in a strange manner, those are facts.
    The trade was June 8th I left feedback at the end of June after trying to resolve it and trying to reach out.

    And btw Sarrasin was limited it wasn't walk up and buy a case it was you are allowed to buy x (2?) per day.
     
  39. MattOC

    MattOC Savant (320) Massachusetts Jan 13, 2013

    Okay, if the truth needs to be told...I've pasting all the messages together, but not coming through clean. I apologize for the length of the message.

    I am strictly an IP trader thus far. I never expect and/or ask for extras. Jane bringing up extras seems a little disingenuous. I mean, I did deliver the beers right to her house.

    If I'm in the wrong, I'll take the blame, but I thought I did right by Jane. I'll leave that up to the thread to decide. Again, sorry for the length of the message.

    1. Per the BM's trade was initiated by Jane on 6/4/14. "Brother Soigne- trade for Dinner."

    Message 1. Jane:
    Hi, we think we are going to HF on Saturday and could pick you up some Brother Soigne.
    What do you think?

    Message 2. ME:

    Hi Jane,

    I think it sounds good. I have a bottle of batch 1 so it would nice to get some of batch 2. My Dinner is dwindling, but I'd be fine with 2:1 (Dinner:BS) if that works for you guys. Let me know.

    Thanks,
    Matt

    Message 3. ME:

    Jane,

    Also, if you'd like to expand, I'd love HF bottles, I have an extra bottle of FW 17, and I see it is on your "Wants" list. If that is still accurate and remains a want, please let me know if that interests you. If not, we can just stick with the original proposal. Thanks.

    Matt

    Message 4. J:

    what are you looking for? FW 17 sounds good. and yes we will pick you up BS all contingent on Saturday working out but if you want it and its on the shelf happy to help out.

    Message 5. ME:
    I'm interested in the HF bottles you have on your Gots, particularly the stouts. Not sure if they are up to date and I understand none of them are listed FT, but that is something I'd like to discuss in regards to FW17.

    Of course, things would need to work this weekend for BS.

    I appreciate you reaching out in regards to BS-Dinner. Hopefully we can get a trade done. Thanks.

    Matt

    Message 6. J:

    let me look at my cellar but I am getting way down to the point of those are for my drinking.
    anything else on hf shelfs you want?

    Message 7. ME:

    Sure. Take a look Jane. No worries either way. That's what they are there for, drinking. Perfectly content on the Dinners, Soigne, otherwise.

    Not really, besides the new stuff, but those aren't in play since they are so limited. I've had everything else listed on the shelves.

    Thanks

    Message 8. J:
    fyi we arent buying our limit of sarrasin

    Message 9. ME:
    I would definitely be interested in that. Thanks Jane. So if we go $4$: Soigne @ $12, Sarrasin @ $30 = $42. Then my end, 2 Dinner @ $8, then low end ($22 high end) I paid for FW XVII, $19.75 = $35.75. So I'd need to come up on my end.

    You can take a look at my Hads/FT to see if anything on there catches your eye to make up the difference.

    Let me know if this sounds good and/or if you had something else in mind. Thanks.

    Message 10. J:
    it sounds good we can work out the minor differences but I will go up with the intention of grabbing you a BS and sarrasin

    Message 11. ME:
    Sounds good. Thanks Jane.

    Message 12. J:
    sorry I took a look at my HF stouts, I only have two of some and 1 of others so I want to keep both, I will get you the other two beers.

    Message 13. ME:
    No worries Jane. Had my eye on stouts, but completely understand. Thanks.

    Message 14. J:
    hey Matt, I have the Sarrasin and Soigne for you

    Message 15. ME:
    Good morning Jane,

    Awesome. Thank you. I am in Woburn today if you would like to make the swap today. Just let me know when. I don't mind driving to your house, we've traded there before, but I'll need a reminder on the address. Thanks.

    Matt

    Message 16. J:
    <first part of message was her address> about what time do u think.?


    Message 17. ME:

    Thanks.

    Well, I'm heading out to do a trade in the next hour or so. Would you be available shortly after that?

    Message 18. J:
    shortly after 11 am? yes that would work

    Message 19. ME:
    Great. See you in a bit then. Thanks again Jane.

    Message 20. ME:
    Hi Jane,

    At another trade now. Will be heading your way once I'm done here.

    Thanks,
    Matt

    Message 21. J:
    I would definitely be interested in that. Thanks Jane. So if we go $4$: Soigne @ $12, Sarrasin @ $30 = $42. Then my end, 2 Dinner @ $8, then low end ($22 high end) I paid for FW XVII, $19.75 = $35.75. So I'd need to come up on my end.

    Hi Matt, nice touching base again, thanks for the dinner and FW17. I am sure we will trade again soon and perhaps we can even things out then.
    thanks
    Jane

    *First part of this is a message she cut and pasted from above, Message 9. Key part she left is the sentence I wrote below it and put in bold above: You can take a look at my Hads/FT to see if anything on there catches your eye to make up the difference.

    Message 22. J:

    *This message was sent on 6/22/14. Trade was completed on 6/8/14.


    Matt,
    I haven't closed the trade out because of something that was bothering me. feel free to say that I am silly but I thought we agreed that sarrasin for FW 17 needed something added. If we have an understanding that this will be closed out in a further trade fair enough but it would be good to be spelled out.
    I probably havent communicated this part well and for that I apologise but I felt awkward about this.

    Message 23. ME:

    *Final BM.

    Hi Jane,

    Sorry it's not sitting well with you. However, you should go back through the messages, see June 5th, etc. I asked you to go back and take a look at my hads (meant Gots) /FT to see if anything on there catches your eye to to make up the difference. You never did and or never got back to me about it. Therefore, I went to your hads since I didn't have any of your wants, and found something I had that you had highly rated, Bourbon County Brand Stout. I passed on perfectly cellared 2012. Not sure what else to tell you.

    If you want to leave neg feedback that's your choice. Again, sorry you don't feel well about it. Thought I did my part and I appreciate what you did for me.

    Matt
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  40. MattOC

    MattOC Savant (320) Massachusetts Jan 13, 2013

    Jane,

    If you're going paste messages, don't cherry pick. Include the entire context of the message and not parts of it. Gives a false impression of the conversation and how it all went down. I have included everything in my message above.

    Thanks,
    Matt
     
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