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Bad Trader Alert - Swuntly and potentially CEnterPound

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk & Help' started by cbeer88, Jul 4, 2012.

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  1. MordorMongo

    MordorMongo Initiate (0) Jul 19, 2009

    Didn't compare it, asked if you are opposed to those as well. In fact I agree with your point but do not think listing PARTIAL names or addresses would hurt, those cannot be *googled*.
     
  2. weaksauce

    weaksauce Savant (325) Ohio Sep 2, 2010

    I think having someone send first is crucial for new trades. The lesson learned here is one good trade doesn't mean you will not get screwed for the second trade.

    Posting personal info does not seem right. Maybe just enough to be recognizable but then it would be difficult to search. A quick search that only shows users when matched would be ideal.
     
  3. DSlim71

    DSlim71 Savant (495) New Jersey Mar 3, 2010

    I think by even mentioning it, you're bringing up at least some sort of comparison. And I guess I'm in favor of the list. I've never checked it, but can see how it would be a help. I know the next point would be "well then you can see how this would help too." It was brought up earlier how it's also run by the government, not just a random group who have interest in the topic at hand. It just seems a little excessive, and I don't know too much about law, but I'd bet it's illegal too.
     
  4. MordorMongo

    MordorMongo Initiate (0) Jul 19, 2009

    And AGAIN, I don't think it is the same as the sex offender list. But I think if someone comes to this community and steals beer then listing a PARTIAL name/address (that cannot be googled and tied to said person) will give a prospective trader a hint they need to dig deeper. Someone explain how THAT is illegal instead of ignoring it repeatedly and focusing instead on complete personal information.
     
  5. The way it is now is probably the best way I can have it without causing any problem. I see where most people were getting at though. An address stays.. A BA name can be changed. If people are listed and decide to simply make a new account, there's no way for anyone to know. Now when trading they give you their info and it's the same as on the list then obviously it would ring a bell. I'm not sayin i'm for it 100% just would make pointing out repeating scammers easier.
     
  6. IANAL, but I think that you're walking a double edged sword here. i.e. the very thing you want to do (help reveal the person's identity), is the very thing you can't do. Even if this would protect you from the job search hypothetical I laid out above, it might not protect you from the crazy loony stalker scenario.

    Also - another angle - there's nothing saying that the name/address are even really theirs. (In fact, we have reason to believe the guy I started this thread about used multiple names) Names are easy enough to put whatever down on a shipping address, and if you're going to scam someone, it's not hard to have them send the box to a friends/neighbor/relatives house. Said friend/neighbor doesn't even need to be in on the scam. In fact, if the trader list started including more info, I'd expect an uptick in that happening.
     
  7. AleWatcher

    AleWatcher Advocate (720) Illinois Jan 25, 2009

    This is why having the member that submitted the bad trader is important.
    And why I suggest that anyone that submits a bad trader keep the info handy somewhere.
    I would like to see city/state or just the zipcode listed on the bad traders list for all the people listed.

    If I am gonna trade with some one from Goshen Indiana and I see Cuzco added a bad user from that town, then I simply shoot him a BM and ask if my guys's name/address matches in any sense.
    If so, I cancel the trade and alert the community with a thread.

    This way, no personal info is posted publically, but one message allows for confirmation.

    Other option-- oldport keeps a separate list WITH names and addresses that is private. He can run double checks as people message him. (I think this would be more of a pain in the ass for the list-keeper than the first option which puts me firmly in support of the former)
     
    Kuemmelbrau and nanobrew like this.
  8. Krumb

    Krumb Savant (290) Texas Jan 30, 2008

    Here's the problem:

    Guy got ripped off - "he's a deadbeat trader, he is terrible, blah blah blah"

    Community - "who is it? I dont want the same thing to happen to me!"

    Guy that got ripped off- "well, i dont want to out him, in case..."

    Community - ""what about information to help this not happen again?"

    GTGRO (since we love acronyms) - "No no no, he may be a thief, but his address is private! Just be careful out there."

    If a guy steals from me, then he has no right to the privacy y'all think he is owed. He lost that right when he stole from me,

    Just saying, ACLU crowd.
     
    Duff27 and Photekut like this.
  9. jegross2

    jegross2 Advocate (715) Illinois Jan 3, 2010

    Makes sense.
     
  10. jegross2

    jegross2 Advocate (715) Illinois Jan 3, 2010


    Let me know how that argument holds up in court Hammurabi ;)
     
  11. Krumb

    Krumb Savant (290) Texas Jan 30, 2008

    What court? Beer advocate court?

    If someone shares their address, and then I share it...what privacy law have i broken? I have no duty to them, no contract.
     
    richkrull and YaKnowBrady like this.
  12. jivex5k

    jivex5k Advocate (600) Florida Apr 13, 2011

    Maybe just adding the city would help.
     
  13. I agree with what a couple people said. Having the zip code and name of the submitter might perfectly straddle this issue. A zipcode is hardly an identifying feature, but it would allow me to send a message to the submitter and see if the contact info matches what he has from the bad trade.
     
  14. You can't just blast a person's private information out to the world because you feel like it - there are numerous laws and liabilities that could end up causing you problems. If you want revenge, you can sue them in a court. Otherwise, two wrongs don't make a legal right.
     
  15. Krumb

    Krumb Savant (290) Texas Jan 30, 2008

    Maybe y'all are considering revenge. I'm referring to a record of bad traders. One that includes information given by said traders. For reference. What privacy law, or other laws, are broken by doing so? And it is a far cry, "blasting" from being responsible. And for the most part, responsibility is not lost on this group. Passiveness, however, seems to be an issue that perpetuates the problem.
     
  16. jegross2

    jegross2 Advocate (715) Illinois Jan 3, 2010

    This.
     
  17. It's how you post it. Privately you're fine. Publicly the site hosting the info and the user who posted/maintained it are violating various PII laws (every state has their own). Google around and you can find everything you ever wanted to know about it (and more).

    Then, beyond straight privacy issues, you're then also opening yourself up to slander-related lawsuits.

    It's not passiveness, it's that we live in a country with a lot of privacy laws, and violating them isn't worth a $50 box of beer.
     
  18. Krumb

    Krumb Savant (290) Texas Jan 30, 2008

    Again, i challenge you to find and quote the case law that says you can't share someone's address on a forum after they give that info to you. (and i get that the bros can...it's their forums). But some of you keep yelling legal. Not familiar with that privacy law.
     
  19. Krumb

    Krumb Savant (290) Texas Jan 30, 2008

    Completely agree with your first point. Responsibility is key.

    But i can't agree with your last. Because there is no law being violated. No duty owed. No contract. No agreement. You gave me your information. I would only be breaking the law if i committed a crime with that info.
     
  20. Pahn

    Pahn Advocate (695) New York Dec 2, 2009

    i wonder where people come up with things like this. re: posting personal info, i'm against it, but that's not really what i'm posting about here. even if i were for it, it baffles me when someone says, "well, if you do X, you forfeit Y," when there's no principled correlation whatsoever.

    i mean, why does he lose his right to privacy when he steals from you? because you're angry? because he committed a bad act, so now all bad acts toward him are acceptable (again, why? by what logic??)?

    this stuff falls immediately upon inspection. it's obvious to pretty much anyone that you can't pick an effect out of thin air and say, "well of course X causes that effect," or a punishment out of thin air and "well, of course that punishment fits such-and-such crime."

    you need to do a little more mental work than that...
     
  21. jegross2

    jegross2 Advocate (715) Illinois Jan 3, 2010

    There are some privacy torts that come to mind. Im not quite sure public address disclosure would qualify as a tort, but depending on what other information you reveal there are common law torts like Public Disclosure of Private Facts, Intrusion of Affairs/Seclusion, Publication in a "false light." My guess is there are more "on point" state laws beyond the realm of tort that would be more directly applicable.

    I'd be "more helpful," but i go on this site to avoid thinking about the bar exam lol
     
  22. WagonCircler

    WagonCircler Savant (255) New York May 15, 2011

    I think that this is one of the worst traders in recent history. He didn't get in over his head or have some form of life happen like most people, he lied (scored an awesome box that I sent him) changed his name and continued to trade. What a loser. Wow.
     
  23. You're a citizen of the United States. You have a contract with our legal system.

    You can start here for background:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_privacy

    And read up at a very high level on Federal Law here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_privacy#Laws_and_regulations

    And state law you can start here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_privacy#State_laws

    And that probably begins to scratch the very tip of the iceberg.

    I don't think you realize just how massive the privacy lawbook is. Why do you think the bros will immediately nuke a thread whenever somebody's real name comes out in one?
     
  24. jegross2

    jegross2 Advocate (715) Illinois Jan 3, 2010

    It's like the concept of limited duties owed to anticipated/known trespassers and the rule against using deadly force to defend property. I mean sure, he's trespassing on your land ("get off my lawn") or "stealing your stuff", but two wrongs do not make a right. And wrongs precedent do not per se justify wrongs subsequent.
     
    Pahn likes this.
  25. Krumb

    Krumb Savant (290) Texas Jan 30, 2008

    In a perfect world, maybe. I'm talking about someone stealing my beer, on a beer forum, via a trade setup through messages - silly, righht? Our arrangement is x for y. You take x, i dont get y? Okay...i'll make sure you don't pull this again with others. I feel responsible to do so. the right you had to that privacy...that privacy of me keeping our arrangement secret...you lose that right because you may try it again. Ethical?
     
  26. jegross2

    jegross2 Advocate (715) Illinois Jan 3, 2010

    But "who says" they lose that right? You? When does that right attach. Technically you and I have an enforceable contract when you promise to ship x for my promise to ship y. So if you later back out does a similar right attach? Because legally, my personal remedy against you is the same in your scenario as mine
     
  27. Krumb

    Krumb Savant (290) Texas Jan 30, 2008

    Guys, we're seeing this at different levels. And cbeer...you said yourself...if shared privately...i added responsibly....then okay. And of course the bros have a responsibilty, they have this forum. No compromise to any laws sharing information given freely by others, as long as no laws are broken in use of information.

    I disagree, and will continue to laugh at some of you as you complain of bad traders and rack your brains over what to do about them.

    I will also enjoy this beer i'm drinking. So cheers.
     
  28. Maybe first 3 digits of a phone number or something could be a good idea.
     
    AleWatcher likes this.
  29. Pahn

    Pahn Advocate (695) New York Dec 2, 2009

    @ your question in the earlier post (quoting me) about "is it ethical to post info to make sure the theft doesn't happen again?" i'm not sure, it depends on the context... but the point is that you don't inherit "a right" to post his stuff, nor does he forfeit one. assuming that he had such a right, respected by you, in the first place, you're acting irrationally to assume that he loses it just because he does something you think is unethical/immoral.

    it's one thing to say, "all i care about is stopping bad traders, the ends justify the means, and it really doesn't matter if the means violate someone's privacy." it's another to say, "they were owed privacy [for some unsaid reason], but now they aren't, because they committed an unrelated bad act." the latter is just nonsense.

    ---

    as for this post i quoted, personally i think a list of usernames is enough, plus 1) private speculation a la "i suspect that new user so-and-so is the old scammer bla-bla-bla," and way way way way way more importantly, 2) smart trading where you take seriously signs that your trading partner may not be trustworthy.

    at this point in trading, personal vigilance really is pretty sufficient.
     
    AleWatcher likes this.
  30. AleWatcher

    AleWatcher Advocate (720) Illinois Jan 25, 2009

    This thread started off so well...
    And it just keeps getting better!

    Just to keep shit lively--
    "bad traders are worse than the nazis!"
    -alewatcher 07.05.12

    Seriously though, this thread has served its purpose. It's now breaking down into sub-threads;
    1). Should the bad trader list be changed at all to make it more useful?
    2). Are registered sex offenders lists a good thing?
    3). What are the privacy laws protecting bad traders?
    4). Identity theft of a trader's good name?
    5). Which is more important right now, the gay pride Oreo or the god particle?

    Many of these posts are fun and informative, but they are buried in this thread and many people will never read them because the reason for the main thread has been resolved. I'll happily join in the conversations if some one starts a new thread under a relevant title.
     
  31. 1)maybe
    2)I think so
    3)unknown
    4)annoying
    5)oreos
     
    AleWatcher likes this.
  32. stxSS07

    stxSS07 Initiate (0) Illinois Nov 23, 2010

    I hate Illinois Nazis.
     
  33. MordorMongo

    MordorMongo Initiate (0) Jul 19, 2009

    I always just assumed bad traders WERE Nazis. ;)
     
    franklinn and AleWatcher like this.
  34. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    I really dislike the name "god particle". It doesn't mean anything. And finding it just confirms what we already had good reason to believe (plus we haven't actually found it yet, we found a boson at approximately the right mass but we don't yet know it's the Higgs).

    But if your question is "is a universe without the pride oreo better or worse than a universe without a mass-giving scalar field" I vote the latter. I use mass all the time!
     
  35. AleWatcher

    AleWatcher Advocate (720) Illinois Jan 25, 2009

    Haha. I think I just spend too much time on reddit... Just last week my 5 year old told me a joke I've heard already and I was like "REPOST!"
     
    nanobrew likes this.
  36. gkatsoris

    gkatsoris Initiate (0) Jun 27, 2007

    6). "y'all" was used more than once.
    7). "tort" was also used more than once.

    (I also hate Illinois Nazis.)...(SCMODS.)
     
  37. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    Reddit is a wretched hive of scum and villainy, and yet I can't stop going there.
     
  38. AleWatcher

    AleWatcher Advocate (720) Illinois Jan 25, 2009

    Yeah, I know it. I don't even go on any of the beer related sub-reddits.
    I pretty much stick to r/atheism, r/askscience, and r/funny & r/pics for the lolz.
     
  39. jegross2

    jegross2 Advocate (715) Illinois Jan 3, 2010

    Useless comment is useless
     
    franklinn likes this.
  40. weaksauce

    weaksauce Savant (325) Ohio Sep 2, 2010

    I love that this thread is now talking about the legality of posting someone’s private information when the legality of trading/shipping beer is questionable to start with.
     
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