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Beat still at RR

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk & Help' started by oreo, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Advocate (700) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    No, and that's not what either of us said at all. And yes, I read the entirety of the KBS thread, and I was there. Neither of us said that the Founders way was better, just different.
  2. BigTomZ

    BigTomZ Savant (325) Virginia Apr 14, 2009

    I find these types of threads entertaining anyway. Especially when I am at my night job.
  3. Rempo

    Rempo Advocate (635) Indiana Jan 18, 2010

    Do you have any idea how many people got to buy KBS that aren't near the brewery?
  4. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    Umm, okay. Let's go through this. I said that the fact that this release was universally lauded by those involved "is a testament to the inanity of the Founders/GI model".

    Possumguy then says that assumes that they all want the same outcome. To which I reply that it only assumes that they don't want people to pissed off at them. So then you say that you never said they wanted that, just that they do it differently? So, how have you addressed anything I've said AT ALL? I say that those releases are a failure because they generate tons of ill-will (and this point is completely inarguable, if you read the KBS thread). That is my entire point. If you're going to argue against me you need to say why generating tons of ill-will is acceptable (or desirable). Saying "it's just different" isn't addressing anything because I already know it's different. I'm saying it's worse. If you disagree with me then you're saying it's not, and I'd like to know why.

    Do you have any idea how many people didn't get to buy KBS that are near the brewery? Why is one superior to the other?
    nanobrew likes this.
  5. This equation doesn't work out, please see the explanations laid out above.

    "Possumguy" .....so should I refer to you as "Zebra fleshlight guy?"
    yamar68 likes this.
  6. Rempo

    Rempo Advocate (635) Indiana Jan 18, 2010

    Words in my mouth much? Where did I say one was superior to the other? You're the one who said that one was inane, instead of realizing that each type of release has its plusses and minuses. How many people didn't get to buy KBS at the release? How many people could've bought Beatification had it been released for distribution? Can't please everyone all the time.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  7. And I would say that the ill-will is generated on the consumption side - not the production side. The consumer needs to wear some responsibility here. And there are many other variables in this equation that don't get considered here. These variables affect each beer distribution/consumption model differently, thus, affecting the "happiness" of the customers. To say that it is simply Founders model that is at fault disregards the many thousands of varied expectations that seek out their product as well as demographic and geographic factors. This is obviously a simplification of a complex system for the sake of an internet discussion.

    And I do like the way that RR handled this release, for the record.
  8. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    My god, when I'm saying "I think this model is worse" and you reply to me saying something defending the model I think it's pretty fair to assume that you're defending the model. I also didn't put words in your mouth, you directly said that distributing KBS lets more people get that, so I asked you why it's better for more people to get it in distribution that closer to home.

    I'm saying that the number doesn't really matter, it's how people feel about how it went. Have you heard anyone who bought Beat complain about how it was handled? Why is it so controversial to say that a release that generates significant amounts of ill will is a terrible model of release?

    What equation? I have no idea what you're talking about.
    How on earth do you see a fleshlight there? That's a pretty interesting insight to your psyche, jeez.
  9. Yeah, you win the internet today. ;)
  10. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Advocate (700) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    My impression is that you are vastly overrating the amount of "ill will" generated by the KBS release. Yes, at the time, people were pissed that their allotments got cut in half, or that they got shut out because a crazy number of people showed up. However, those same people got over it. People realized there was still plenty of beer to go around, and they moved on. I highly doubt it will have a lasting effect on Founders' sales.

    I also don't understand why you need us to agree with you so badly.
  11. Rempo

    Rempo Advocate (635) Indiana Jan 18, 2010

    The Founders model was worse at the brewery. People traveled and went home unhappy.
    The Founders model was better in distribution. People far away from the brewery got to buy it.

    You act like everything is so black and white. There's shades of gray, man.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  12. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    Oh I doubt that it will really affect them, but I think the fact that they announced like 3 days later that they're doing it differently shows that they recognize it was a clusterfuck. I think that means it was a bad way to do it.

    I don't. I just like to argue about stupid things with strangers on the internet.

    Not really. I think that the way they do releases is worse. I think if you can't sate demand in a market you shouldn't distribute to it, and that they do it wrong. That's not really black and white, something can be worse while not being THE WORST EVER. I think shooting beer out of a cannon into the sun would probably be the worst.

    Anyway I don't really think that it makes much of a difference where people are who buy beer, however you do it the number who get it will end up being somewhat similar, the only question is how much hassle it is to get. I think the best release will minimize that hassle, and it's transparently obvious that the diaspora method the Founders and GI use does not do that.
  13. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Advocate (700) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    Founders and Goose apparently do. And if, as you admit, it doesn't really effect their sales, why not try and expand their distribution as much as possible? Contrary to what many people on this site would like to think, breweries like Founders and Goose Island (and even Russian River, to some extent) aren't succeeding because of their special releases, but rather because of their everyday products. Obviously breweries like Founders, Goose, and Firestone Walker believe that if they can spread their special releases as far as possible, it gains them more notoriety for their every day products to sell in new markets. I would imagine they're not having a hard time fulfilling the demand for Dirty Bastard in Michigan, so why not try and see if it can sell out in Arizona or New Mexico? Again, it's just a different way of running their business. While they obviously don't want negative publicity, running the perfect release party is not their top priority.


    Agree to disagree on what is the "best" way to release a limited-run beer.
  14. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    I don't actually think Firestone spreads it thin, at least around me it's pretty trivial to get a case of Abacus or Parabola if you want it.

    Regardless, sending your standards to far-flung markets is all well and good, since the brewery can make a shitton of them. I just think it's silly to send your special releases to the same markets. Like, Minnesota got two cases of Bramble, why even bother? CBS was the same story, why even distribute it to a state if you're going to have stores getting half a case? It seems like it just creates a headache for the brewery, for the distributor, for the retailer, and for the customer. If you're going to do that at least be like 50-50 and price according to the demand.

    But yeah, it looks like we basically agree to disagree.
  15. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Advocate (700) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    Definitely agree here.
  16. nanobrew

    nanobrew Advocate (645) California Dec 31, 2008

    In SoCal it can be harder to find. You could find it, but it sells quickly (24hrs) and it is relatively difficult to get close to a case. I think it is getting better, and I am not sure if it is FW that is not saturating it's local market or the distributor (which is known as a bad one)
  17. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    Well, before Levitation gets here, where IS Firestone's home market? Paso Robles isn't really in classical SoCal, which is more LA/SD (in my mind). It looks like it's about halfway between San Jose and LA, so for all I know they might think the Bay Area is their home market. Or their distributor sucks, who knows?
  18. nanobrew

    nanobrew Advocate (645) California Dec 31, 2008

    we might not be their home market but it is sad to hear how stores in the midwest and east coast get cases upon cases, when beer stores in SD are happy to get 1-2 cases.
    alwaysanswerb likes this.
  19. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    Weird. My local bevmo claimed to get 10 cases of Sucaba. I didn't see them, but their online inventory system can't be THAT off. I figured SoCal bevmos would get just as much.
  20. they didn't (at least, last year). i didn't bother this year, for well-documented reasons.
  21. aasher

    aasher Poobah (1,270) Indiana Jan 27, 2010 Beer Trader

    Chicago and New York are vaccuums.
  22. mikecharley

    mikecharley Advocate (555) Pennsylvania Nov 6, 2008 Beer Trader

    Beatification is a good beer, that's for sure
  23. goveia75

    goveia75 Savant (330) Florida Mar 20, 2011 Beer Trader

    FYI for anyone who still wanted to head to the pub for Beat, I'm there now and according to multiple staff members, they expect Beat to last into the weekend.

    Btw, row 2 is fucking awesome!
    Pwnzilla likes this.
  24. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    RR's blog says that as well, if so that's great news for me, might be able to get some more.
  25. Pahn

    Pahn Champion (850) New York Dec 2, 2009 Beer Trader

    huh? why? i feel like i must be missing several tacit assumptions here about the ethics of selling beer to people...

    edit: re: overall argument, can't say i care. as long as the beer gets out it's pretty much all good as far as i'm concerned. i appreciate when brewers go the extra mile to please customers, but both founders and russian river seem like pretty stand up breweries as far as everything i've heard, so...
  26. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    I just don't see the point of sending beer thousands of miles away when it would trivially sell closer to home. You can come up with a ton of reasons for that, but let's go with... shipping further away is more environmentally unfriendly. As good as anything, right?

    It's basically a first principle anyway, there's not a ton of rationale behind it. Although given how often other dudes have espoused the "reward the locals" argument I'm really surprised at how much pushback I've received.
    nanobrew likes this.
  27. Pahn

    Pahn Champion (850) New York Dec 2, 2009 Beer Trader

    not selling to local market is questionable i think, and i can see locals giving criticism. not sating locals as unacceptable, i think that's a stretch... i can see preferring that route, but i can't really see getting too up in arms about it not being taken.
  28. you've seen how much shit i take for hammering firestone on violating that principle, so you shouldn't be surprised at all.
  29. Pahn

    Pahn Champion (850) New York Dec 2, 2009 Beer Trader

    re: environment, that argument pretty strained... they're shipping to these markets whether they get KBS / etc no matter what, not like shipping those tiny batches makes much difference. i'm sure that's not your only argument against it though.

    i don't think it's a silly position to take or anything, just not sure it resonates much with me as long as the locals get some access.
  30. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    Well, some access != adequate access. We'll see what happens as these barrel programs ramp up.
  31. Pahn

    Pahn Champion (850) New York Dec 2, 2009 Beer Trader

    i think it will get a lot better, though not necessarily for whale hunters. the bruery has been very clearly focused on making BT a shelf beer since before it was made (like, the idea of beers like that being shelf beers). when they finally accomplish it, they're going to make a shit load of money. (edit: and, i would guess, the people mysteriously wishing for beer to get more expensive will have something to be thankful for as well...)

    for now though, we're in a dark age of speculators and long lines. barrel programs will catch up though, and demand's not going down any time soon (nor is the talent level of brewers). good things coming.
  32. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    It would be pretty funny if it came to a point where the amount of bourbon being made was the limiting factor.
  33. it amuses me when i see a bottle of bourbon running for cheaper than a beer aged for a fraction of the time in the same barrels.
  34. meerkat2

    meerkat2 Aficionado (245) Florida Aug 27, 2007

    ISO: shelf beat FT: $4$ NY shelfs

  35. weatherdog

    weatherdog Savant (490) Illinois Nov 7, 2007

    I hope to god that one day there will be almost 5 million bourbon barrels aging beer. Let's make this a reality.
  36. goveia75

    goveia75 Savant (330) Florida Mar 20, 2011 Beer Trader

    If you will tell me what shelf, I will be glad to help you with this.
  37. aasher

    aasher Poobah (1,270) Indiana Jan 27, 2010 Beer Trader

    Would someone explain this whole Old Fitzgerald barrel aging then? :)
  38. A point, hitherto, unconsidered.

    You've read it. You can't unread it.
  39. saru96

    saru96 Zealot (95) California Sep 24, 2011

    I know today was the RR anniversary party does anyone know how beat quantities are doing as of today?
  40. tewaris

    tewaris Advocate (605) Minnesota Jul 14, 2009

    I don't even want Beatification now because it's so easy to get. Am I doing this right?
    PALMEJ1 and meerkat2 like this.