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Counterfeit Cantillon John Chris Nomad

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk & Help' started by JealousChalice, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. BearsOnAcid

    BearsOnAcid Advocate (735) Massachusetts Mar 17, 2009 Verified

    Not doubting that this can happen through a trade I just like to think that traders are a little more respectable than that.

    I've noticed many rare beers selling for hundreds on Ebay for years now from European sellers so I wouldn't immediately cancel them out of the equation. It should be even easier to create a fake over there than here.
  2. BeRanger

    BeRanger Advocate (520) Michigan Dec 11, 2011 Verified

    I'm willing to sample both and let you know.
    thirdeye11 and Tenchi221 like this.
  3. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Savant (455) Netherlands Jun 4, 2009

    True, but for European Ebayers it is also relatively easy to obtain most of these bottles, so less need to counterfeit IMO. I am pretty sure it takes more time and effort to counterfeit bottles, than to drive to e.g. Chris to buy a whole bunch of bottles for example.

    Anyhow, about the corks, I will contact cantillon about that and post the answer here.
  4. cpferris

    cpferris Savant (265) Indiana Jan 22, 2008 Verified

    All my bottles are also have 2011 cork dates and none of them have the label flaws discussed in this thread. So I am optimistic that they did, in fact us a variety of corks.
    jedwards likes this.
  5. MaltMilkshake

    MaltMilkshake Savant (265) California Feb 9, 2011 Verified

    How much would one expect to clear per bottle under your method above? Im not saying it isn't easy. I am saying why bother with something so small and trivial. I realize that it is easier to fly under the "materiality" radar with these small antics but there has to be a point at which it is not worth it.
  6. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Savant (270) California Jul 10, 2011

    This reminds me of the people who have a good job, but end up losing it stealing stupid shit. I knew a guy who was responsible for taking all the empty bottles/cans to the recycling center. He was pocketing the cash every other time and ended up losing his 50K a year job over an extra couple hundred bucks. I guess the point I'm trying to make is people are stupid sometimes.
  7. DefenCorps

    DefenCorps Advocate (680) Oregon Jan 18, 2007 Verified

    Sounds like this guy:
    Vice president of a multinational company, caught stealing $30K worth of Legos.
    Domeshot14 likes this.
  8. Lots of people get off on the thrill of scamming somebody.

    But there really is pretty decent money to be made in fake beer with so many bottles selling for $50-$100 and up nowadays. You sell two fake $100 bottles per week and that is $10,000 per year.
  9. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    No it's not, you really need to be subtracting eBay fees and the money spent on making the counterfeit. It's probably half that.

    Also, I'm just curious, what are the tax implications of selling on eBay? I've never done it so I don't really know, but if you have to pay income tax on that (or risk an audit) that's another cost.
    afksports likes this.
  10. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Savant (270) California Jul 10, 2011

    By law you owe tax on any type of income. So you would owe taxes on the amount over any expenses you incurred. The amount of money we are talking about here could easily be written down to a loss with very little tax code knowledge. The risk of an audit making less than 250K+ a year with out taking a red flag deduction is like getting hit by lightning.
  11. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    Fair enough, I'm definitely not a tax expert.
  12. MrKennedy

    MrKennedy Advocate (655) Australia Dec 29, 2006 Verified

    Not eBay specifically, but in general out here (AUS) it depends on whether it is a hobby or business...hobby is occasional, business is regular and of a "sufficient" scale. Hobby isn't taxable. Business, of course, is with the taxable amount being income less related expenses incurred.
  13. It's been a long and troubling day. Time for a good beer. Mmm... what shall it be?
  14. tewaris

    tewaris Advocate (605) Minnesota Jul 14, 2009

    MarkIntihar likes this.
  15. Ebay fees are not that large at all. About 7%-8% at the $100 level, give or take a bit, assuming beer goes in the "miscellaneous" category. Call it an even 10% with PayPal.

    So take CBS, which sells for $120. (plus shipping) Call it a generous $10 to make the beer (2 x FBS plus a bit of bourbon and maple), another $5-$10 for the label/bottle... That's $100-$105... minus fees still equals about $90. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to get it done a bit more efficiently.

    2 x $90 x 52 = $9360 of pure profit. And that's not even talking about one of the more expensive bottles on the site. Kate goes for upwards of $100 for the small bottle, and would probably be even easier to fake. Hell, the Kate label actually looks like something somebody fired off on their printer at home. I'd be shocked if a Kate clone has never made it up there.

    Yes, there are taxes at play, but I'm pretty sure scammers don't bother with reporting everything on their taxes. (I'm betting most honest people don't even bother reporting Ebay sales) Plus if you really wanted to turn it into a business, you could easily deduct time/effort/costs, and cook the books to look net-neutral.
    ShogoKawada likes this.
  16. Good idea. I could do that, but I would have to ask myself, would I feel right drinking a whole bottle myself?
  17. Hophead717

    Hophead717 Advocate (565) Massachusetts Oct 21, 2011 Verified

    I hear Cantillon makes this great new beer...it's called Nomad...wait, I forget. Something like that. :)
  18. hoeg0015

    hoeg0015 Savant (350) Minnesota Jul 15, 2008

  19. I've been looking at the label on mine tonight and also been wondering if my bottle is real? Apologies for the flash glare.
  20. DarthKostrizer

    DarthKostrizer Advocate (705) California May 13, 2011 Verified

    There is always a smart ass in the group when someone is trying to help out the beer community. And you have the artistic ability of a 4 year old. Ridiculous
  21. digita7693

    digita7693 Advocate (680) Germany Jan 19, 2010 Verified

    might as well drink a Cantillon classic gueuze
  22. thirdeye11

    thirdeye11 Savant (485) Texas Feb 3, 2009 Verified

    Lighten up man. The artistic ability of a 4 year old was absolutely the point here.
  23. tewaris

    tewaris Advocate (605) Minnesota Jul 14, 2009

    Someone's drinking haterade instead of the usual hydrating beverage.
  24. futura123

    futura123 Savant (340) California Jul 29, 2010

    mikecharley likes this.
  25. Hophead717

    Hophead717 Advocate (565) Massachusetts Oct 21, 2011 Verified

    There are legitimately ass-holic posts and then there are light-hearted, genuinely funny ones that are not made at anyone's expense. That pictures falls squarely into the latter category.
  26. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

    This is why i don't drink sours ;)
  27. Wish I had a JCN to check... Willing to trade big for one though. :)
  28. And there is always one grumpy fart. The absurdity of the "artistic ability" was the point. Maybe take off your top hat and monocle then step down off your high horse so you can see what everyone else did. It was nothing to be taken serious and was just something to add a little humor to a bad situation. I think you need a hug. :)
  29. sidetracked

    sidetracked Initiate (0) Illinois Nov 9, 2009

    Judging by the back labels I'd say you are right. The real bottle looks like it was printed offset while the fake looks like a home inkjet.
  30. This thread now officially has everything.
    gwguest, thagr81us and Brandonbrew like this.
  31. Rempo

    Rempo Advocate (625) Indiana Jan 18, 2010

    I'm so glad the original post didn't have the pictures.
  32. drewba

    drewba Savant (385) Illinois Nov 14, 2009

    Similarly to a lopsided ISOFT that gets tons of threadshits and bickering (but ultimately gets done thanks to the visibility), will this thread help a new generation of scammers dupe bottles?
  33. Rempo

    Rempo Advocate (625) Indiana Jan 18, 2010

    Well now I know to print the black-and-white back label before printing the red-intensive front label, if that's what you mean.

    And yes, it should help the scammers 'cut corners'.
  34. trxxpaxxs

    trxxpaxxs Champion (815) New York Mar 5, 2010 Verified

    I was just asking myself the same question. Tons of helpful information being given out, but helpful to both parties (counterfeiters and buyers/traders).
    jedwards likes this.
  35. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    Probably not, I don't think any of this information was actually new to someone who was paying attention.
  36. drewba

    drewba Savant (385) Illinois Nov 14, 2009

    Well, that's why I said new generation. As in, people that read this thread and are now turning to the dark side.

    I have some experience in prepress and printing and I learned some shit. I'd like to take the ol' Arbitrator-drinks-Black-Xantus-out-of-a-Narke-bottle prank to the next level.
    Edit - it was a narke bottle, right?
  37. I tend to doubt it - it's not rocket science. Though I'm not even sure it is a bad thing if it does happen. It would immediately hurt and ultimately destroy the Ebay market if it ever caught on. And the trading community generally does a good job policing itself - if anything, fakes leaking into the trading world would make everybody more cautious, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. A vet willingly sending a fake out in a trade guarantees excommunication, and even done accidentally it raises questions about how they obtained the bottle. Then just proceed with caution when dealing with noobs, particularly with whales.
  38. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    From what I've heard, yes.
  39. Tenchi221

    Tenchi221 Aficionado (225) California Feb 8, 2010 Verified

    i would like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread.. it helped me get through a crappy day at work yesterday.. hehe
    ehammond1 likes this.
  40. claaark13

    claaark13 Advocate (715) Indiana Nov 29, 2007 Verified

    I don't think there is a next level. My understanding is that Arbitrator is somewhat bitter about that experience. Then again, I was about 10 beers deep when he told me the story, so maybe he's not that bitter.
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