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Dan Shelton informs: tax credit for New York and excise tax break for all small brewers in the works

Discussion in 'Beer News' started by Todd, May 7, 2012.

  1. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,440) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Dan Shelton (Shelton Brothers) contacted me yesterday with some new developments and follow-up statement to his first statement regarding New York's repeal of beer tax and fee exemptions.

    Accordingly to Shelton, there could be a new tax credit coming for small brewers in New York. He also mentions excise tax breaks to all small brewers across the country; unrelated to the Shelton Brothers lawsuit.

    At this time, I can't confirm or deny any of this. I'm merely posting Shelton's statement verbatim.

    Update. Here's more coverage:
    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/07/schumer-looks-to-help-out-microbreweries-in-new-york/
    http://libn.com/2012/05/07/schumer-zeldin-push-brewer-tax-relief-plan/

    Dan Shelton's statement:
  2. emannths

    emannths Savant (390) Massachusetts Sep 21, 2007

    Welcome to politics, Mr. Shelton. ;)
    beertunes likes this.
  3. Even without the info Jesskidden posted (which is illuminating)... so Mr. self-serving-Shelton is trying to take credit for some things in the works which essentially constitute an angry reaction to his petty lawsuit? And patting himself on the back for that?

    Am I reading that right?

    Whatever... much like TArthur, the best thing Dan Shelton could do for himself would be to shut up.
    cavedave and beertunes like this.
  4. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    i was just going to post this article:

    http://www.newsday.com/long-island/politics/aiming-to-give-craft-beer-brewers-a-break-1.3702315

    and for those from the previous thread who liked to talk about how this will result in a dime more a pint...here is that statement again, directly from NY senators mouth...

    "This makes staying competitive in New York more challenging and may force breweries to pass the cost to consumers, raising the price of a pint of an average craft beer by $1, Schumer said."

    another fun quote about why these breaks are important to our local economy...

    "According to Schumer's office, the industry supports about 60,000 jobs in brewing, distribution and retail sales. Long Island has 10 craft breweries and five more are slated to open in the future."

    really happy to hear that something is happening, but saddened to see that this was in the works anyway (thanks for posting that jesskidden!!!). no matter what happens, i hope that the small breweries that somehow got entangled with shelton don't pass the savings that they will get on to shelton since these breaks are for the breweries. let's not forget that shelton is NOT a brewery, but rather a middle man. i like that shelton is now going to back this bill...that has been around since before their lawsuit.

    pictured because you knew this was already in the works? the hole just gets deeper and deeper...
    beertunes likes this.
  5. emannths

    emannths Savant (390) Massachusetts Sep 21, 2007

    The Senator's recitation of this obviously bogus number just goes to show that he's willing to recite just about anything the brewing industry tells him to. A politician reciting some number doesn't really make that number any more credible.

    Having a political ally fighting to lower the hurdles that small brewers face is a good thing. But politicians aren't exactly known for their fact-checking skills.
    chcfan and teal like this.
  6. In what universe is suing to end an instance of unconstitutional tax discrimination "petty"?

    I can't help but think that a lot of people on this board are determined to find the Sheltons to be the villains in all this, regardless of what actually happens.
  7. BOBPINCH666

    BOBPINCH666 Savant (345) New York Feb 21, 2011

    #NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement, anyone?
    Mebuzzard likes this.
  8. dmeadows

    dmeadows Savant (310) New York Aug 6, 2002

    But New York State's Legislature, know for all too many negatives, has picked up the guantlet as bill Number S7344 entitled "An act to amend the tax law, in relation to a beer production tax credit" has been referred to the Committee on Investigations and Government Operations:

    http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/api/1.0/html/bill/S7344-2011
  9. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    ok, so don't believe the number, but don't bash us for repeating what the news tells us. just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true. $1 a pint increase is what news outlets are reporting as the net increase to the consumer. doesn't matter much to me who is pocketing the extra buck (if it comes to that), but it does suck for beer to get more expensive...whether a dime, $0.50, or a buck.

    question - you have great issue with the potentially false reported increase to the consumer, but i've yet to hear your feedback on the definite false credit that shelton is trying to take for tax breaks that were well in the works before this lawsuit made them look bad. interesting battles you pick there, sir...interesting. so do you work for shelton or what?
  10. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    This is very cool, but not the legislation that shelton is taking credit for and looks like the law that was declared unconstitutional was just put back in place (unless I'm reading it wrong):

    sounds like this tax credit is just for beer made in state? wasn't this essentially what shelton sued to have repealed? so they essentially re-ammended tax law to reverse the decision to ammend it?

    :confused:

    so in the end, absolutely nothing was accomplished or will be changing except the name of the tax credit?
  11. emannths

    emannths Savant (390) Massachusetts Sep 21, 2007

    You want my thoughts on the Sheltons? They act like self-absorbed d-bags too much for my liking. The tone of their comments during this fiasco has done nothing to mitigate this. The implication that the federal excise tax bill was somehow related to these events is misleading, though I give partial blame to Schumer here. In just about all the news coverage of the new proposals, it's Schumer, not the state legislators, who is quoted first and often credited with addressing the problem of the loss of the NY exemption. Maybe Dan wanted to point to it--a locale-neutral way of helping small brewers--as his preferred solution and didn't mean to pat himself on the back for it, but I suspect he knew what he was doing.

    And it was you, not I, that brought the unsourced $1/pint into this conversation to refute the better-documented claims of dime/pint increases. Yes, it sucks when the price of a beer increases. If you think a politician's echoing of a bogus industry claim gives it more weight, you're welcome to stick with it. But relying on politicians for accurate numbers on the quantitative effects of taxation is generally unwise.
  12. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    I'm perfectly fine calling it a lie, because I can look up what the tax was and then do the math. This was done repeatedly in the original thread. The fact that you choose to credulously believe obviously biased news reports vs the numbers that jesskidden and emannths ran is your prerogative, but they're right.
    Beerandraiderfan likes this.
  13. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    fair enough. i definitely agree that local news sensationalizes plenty of stuff, but it is our source for information about whats going on around the world (whether you want to believe it or not, is up to you - but don't shoot the messenger...i was merely quoting what my local news was reporting to me about the price of my local beer - yep, local news was my source...i don't have time to fact check every story i hear). in the end, looks like our local legislators took action soon enough to make these changes not affect the breweries or the end consumer, so if my pint stays where it is, i'm a happy camper. hate to end the drama so soon ;) - sucks for shelton that they went through all of that, got egg on their face and in the end nothing changed.
  14. Mebuzzard

    Mebuzzard Poobah (1,030) Colorado May 19, 2005

    Really? The previous response dedicated 2 paragraphs to fees, while 6 were to taxes.


    What??

    I don't understand the point of most of this post. It basically conveys tax news that was neither of Shelton's doing, nor this year. It doesn't address the labeling fee, for which Shelton was primarily fighting (as they state). This seems like is a face-saving measure...and a long one at that.

    Wonder what 130M barrels is, then.
    http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/craft-brewer-defined
    beertunes likes this.
  15. beertunes

    beertunes Poobah (1,035) Washington Sep 24, 2007

    I'm so glad the Sheltons have my best interests at heart.
  16. beertunes

    beertunes Poobah (1,035) Washington Sep 24, 2007

  17. Andy

    Andy Savant (315) Massachusetts Oct 26, 2001

    Exactly correct. The two are entirely unrelated and the federal excise tax initiative is not likely to pass anytime soon. It's been in the works for years.

    Also no guarantee that any relief will occur on the state side either.

    My thoughts here are in no way related to the Shelton's lawsuit and its result.
  18. jmw

    jmw Savant (430) North Carolina Feb 4, 2009

    Nailed it. It seems like they are having enough fun tearing each other apart over a dollar or a dime and the difference between tariff and tax that they would at some point leave Shelton alone. Eh...I'm sure they are all going to boycott those brews that Shelton Bros. brings in for them.
  19. maltmaster420

    maltmaster420 Savant (450) Oregon Aug 17, 2005

    If all the butthurt New yorkers want to boycott Shelton products we'll gladly take their allotments out here on the west coast. That's more Achel, Cantillon, De Molen, De Ranke, de Struise, Drie Fontienen, Fantome, Haandbryggeriet, Jolly Pumpkin, Mikkeller, Nogne Ø, Panil, and Thiriez beers (not to mention many, many more) for us.
  20. Mebuzzard

    Mebuzzard Poobah (1,030) Colorado May 19, 2005

    unless those labels jump ship...
    Gonzoillini and cosmicevan like this.
  21. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    boycotting shelton beers would be like boycotting Goose Island...i think it is safe to say that despite who distributes people on this board are all about tasty beer.
    beertunes likes this.
  22. cavedave

    cavedave Champion (940) New York Mar 12, 2009

    Saying it will go up a dollar is either correct mathematics done with better data and calculations by the senator's staff, or it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Does it matter? I know to you in Mass. it doesn't, but either way it is certainly inevitable now that NY'ers will be paying a dollar more per pint.

    What is certainly not inevitable is any chance of the legislation mentioned in the OP taking place soon, or, for that matter, ever. We have been promised property tax relief for decades, and corruption legislation has been promised and promised and...snooze.

    This tax credit is doomed by the second word of its name, that is how this state works.
    cosmicevan and jmw like this.
  23. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    Quick question that has been confusing me, before this were beers made in NY $1 less than similar beers made outside of NY? So was Brooklyn's IPA $1 less than Stone IPA? Or whatever. Was this the case?
  24. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    Depends on the bar, but on LI locally produced growlers are ALWAYS cheaper than a similar style of a non local.
  25. avenuepub

    avenuepub Savant (295) Louisiana Apr 23, 2009

    That could be but is not necessarily an indication that the beer started out cheaper. I under price locals just a bit becaseu I like to help out the local breweries. I'm sure I'm not the only bar that does this.
    halo21 likes this.
  26. Also you would expect local beers to cost slightly less because of lower shipping costs, regardless of any other factors.
  27. cavedave

    cavedave Champion (940) New York Mar 12, 2009

    Sorry for the confusion, but what the deuce are you getting at?

    Are you asking us somehow to imagine what the beers would cost if they weren't made in NY, and comparing that imaginary price to the actual price they currently are sold for? If so, how? And why?

    Whatever the meaning of the question, what is relevant to me, and other New Yorkers, yet curiously holds a deal of interest for you and a passel of other out-of-staters (for some reason I can't help but think is voyeuristic in nature), is that I now will be paying 1.00 a pint more for NY beer than I previously paid.
    cosmicevan likes this.
  28. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    Okay, what I'm getting at is that before this lawsuit in-state beer was tax-free while out-of-state beer was taxed. This means that there should have been a systematic price discrepancy between in-state and out-of-state beer if the tax break was passed along to customers.

    My guess is that there wasn't any such disparity, which would mean that the tax break was going right back to the breweries, NOT being passed along to customers. If that's the case then it seems incredibly unlikely that they'd start passing it completely along to the customers, because then they'd be at a disadvantage relative to out-of-state beers (which should read: "the playing field is now level with out-of-state beers").

    Also, I have a problem with the "$1 increase per pint" thing because it's obviously false and it annoys me when people say things that are obviously false.
  29. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    i don't think we need to re-hash the other thread's 200 or so posts...

    bottom line is that irregardless of increases being $0.10, $0.50, $1...no one is happy about their beer prices going up. you can blame shelton, you can blame the bars, you can blame your local politicians, heck you can even blame the pope, it doesn't matter when the bill comes who is at fault, all that matters is that yesterday you paid less than you are paying today. anyone who says that wouldn't piss them off, is a liar...and if you say that it wouldn't piss you off, then prove it, and mail a check to those of us who might be affected for the difference of how many beers we buy a year since you are unaffected by increased prices and happily turn around, bend over, and just take it.

    i don't go out to bars often now that i have a baby, but a conservative estimate that would cover the beers that i do buy when out for myself, my wife, and buddies (hell yeah, i buy rounds when out with my buddies) would be two beers per weekend since i don't go out every weekend, but when i do go out, i buy way more than a beer for my wife and i (and friends). so converse with me to get my address for that $104 check for this year. however, lately i've been buying more and more growlers for at home consumption, so lets call it an even $150 for the year (again, this is a conservative estimate) because most of the local options are only available via growler fill or at the bar.

    also, @stupac, i already told you that the locals were cheaper. to say that increases in costs won't result in a $1 increase is naive. in NY, things don't go up $0.10 when they go up, they go up far more. look at our subway price increases in the past 10 years...they were all substantial price increases. also, if you knew anything about business/retail you'd know that an increase in cost is not flatly passed along to the consumer. everything is based on percentage markups. something that cost $100 and has your standard retail markup of 40% is $140. if those costs go up 10% to $110, the new markup is $154. suddenly that $10 increase in cost has been bumped up to $54!!! now imagine that on a larger scale. you guys are quick to point out the actual costs, but ignore that markups are based on percentages and not flat costs being passed through the system. each level of the system has a markup so the cost to the consumer goes up exponentially.

    who cares who is to blame. shelton is the easy target since they went to the courts and said "no fair" we pay more...as a result costs went up for a lot of companies who were playing by the rules. don't hate the players, hate the games. hopefully these reliefs come soon and we will remain unaffected, but defending Shelton's methods and their defamatory statements and false credit claiming for other local economic incentives is laughable. we get it, you like cantillion and shelton brings you cantillion (hardly)...but step back and look at the situation and stop bashing those of us actually affected. i don't think we need to get to godwin's law so soon, but them price increases will be coming your way soon enough if they stick here, that you can bank on.
    beertunes and alpinebryant like this.
  30. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    Sigh, yes, and in the other thread people did that math and showed it might be $0.25 per pint. You also said local growlers were cheaper, not pints, which is what we're talking about, and you never said how much cheaper.
  31. avenuepub

    avenuepub Savant (295) Louisiana Apr 23, 2009

    You would expect that but I haven't seen that bear out in our market. Economy of scale perhaps . They are smaller so their production costs are higher ....maybe. I'm not sure if my experience holds true for other states though.
  32. BOBPINCH666

    BOBPINCH666 Savant (345) New York Feb 21, 2011

    Me thinks you've had too much , bra. Or are you literally Grover Norquist?
  33. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    Ha haa...loved that Grover Norquist. truth be told, i did finish my and feeling fine (which is usually dangerous for me on BA...but i tend to make twice the friends as enemies with drunken rants, but the enemies always post the thread, the friends always converse with me). also realized that my math was off (big shocker) instead of $10 turning to $54, it is really $10 turning to $14...which is still pretty significant on a larger scale.

    i wouldn't actually look for a check from anyone, but bottom line is that if your beer cost more today than yesterday you'd be pissed. whether it was your local store gouging you or the result of the system. it is a hard pill to swallow from someone out-of-state. a NY'er saying "big deal, we'll pay another buck a pint" is different (but i'm sure that fella would get beaten up pretty bad too). gas prices, property taxes, etc...just SUCK...taxing something that is a luxury that i enjoy is even SUCKIER. shelton is just in the unfortunate position of being the whistle blower on this thing. sucks for them, but not the first time that they pissed off the crowd and doubtfully the last. i'd love to see some of my favorite breweries (stillwater, de struise, cantillion, etc) find a new distributor since i won't boycott beer i love because their distributor messed with my costs.
  34. "if those costs go up 10% to $110, the new markup is $154. suddenly that $10 increase in cost has been bumped up to $54!!! now imagine that on a larger scale. you guys are quick to point out the actual costs, but ignore that markups are based on percentages and not flat costs being passed through the system. each level of the system has a markup so the cost to the consumer goes up exponentially."

    <--This.... Even a .10 cent increase on a pint is not a .10 cent increase . With so many bakers in the kitchen, it is not a one and done price increase. Lets take a look at gas.... A barrel of oil goes up by two dollars, and what do you know, the guy at the gas station down the street knocks the price of a gallon of standard gas up by .30 cents... The math doesn't add up. Regardless of the fact that the guy at the gas station is still selling the gas he bought for $2 Cheaper a gallon than he bought it for at .30 cents more per gallon than he can buy it for today, (he still has to replace that gas) , he is still selling it higher than he bought it for. Flat cost increases are NEVER flat unless it is regulated by law and we know prices are not regulated like that spare a very few industries (electricity? )
    cosmicevan likes this.
  35. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Champion (810) New York Dec 13, 2009

    SIGH is right....ok, so if your accurate math that factors in all the up-charges from brewer to me = $0.25 per pint and a growler has about 5+ pints (12oz) or 4 imperial pints (16oz)...go for it mr math wizard, you tell me. for someone who can figure out the exact cost per ounce impact based on the fact sheets and won't believe that prices will actually increase a penny beyond your calculations you sure are splitting hairs here talking growler price vs pint price before the increase. you are quick to do internet research on tax law and tell us that our local news is lying to us, so go on...prove us all wrong, search some websites and check growler prices, pint prices and the like...make a spreadsheet of current prices, and then when the increases take affect re-check all those sites and tell us how things didn't change or that we shouldn't wine about another $ or $2 per whatever serving we buy. let us know who we should be mad at. tell us what bars we should boycott since they not only passed the costs onto us, but they also decided to take a little more off the top for themselves. don't be lazy...if you want to really back your story up, show your work. who knows, maybe you'll get a handful of likes on your post and win some pointless BA trophy for most pointless likes received in a day?

    does it really matter? it will cost more...

    i'm done with this give and take. i know, to you it doesn't matter...if your prices went up i wouldn't care either. in fact, i'd try to set up trades with you and then tell you that you got gouged and that i won't give you $4$ on what you paid, but rather what things cost in other states. we got the spirit, yes we do...we got the spirit...how about YOU???
  36. This thread feels like one of those "it came too soon" 5 year reunions from something.

    There's really nothing more to say here. People want things that are incompatible sometimes.

    Using fuzzy math - gaining sympathy for NY brewers/maintaining one's own credibility
    Progressive idealogy - disdain for paying equal tax rate
    Shelton desire to not be bad guy - continual not so veiled somewhat personal jabs
  37. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) California Feb 22, 2011

    Hey, now, that's absolutely NOT what this is. My guess is the guys complaining are way more likely to be conservative, but it's really neither here nor there.
  38. cavedave

    cavedave Champion (940) New York Mar 12, 2009

    I guess you and Stupac will be back here to explain how the $1.00, or more, increases in cost of pints of NY beer that are certain to follow are not real either, but are the result of some fuzzy eyesight by us NY'ers, or fuzzy computing by the cash register. I don't care for your sympathy, in fact I suspect it and would examine my position more carefully should I get it. I know Shelton was in the right legally, but maybe your careful math has given you the answer that I also have to like what they did. Well, I don't.

    Now there is nothing more to say.
    beertunes and cosmicevan like this.
  39. SteelersX

    SteelersX Savant (420) New York Jan 30, 2011

    I would be interested in hearing what some of the breweries the distribute have to say.

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