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Does this warrant a trader warning / bad trade feedback?

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk & Help' started by thetomG, Apr 15, 2014.

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  1. thetomG

    thetomG Savant (430) Illinois Feb 17, 2010

    Hello everyone - just want some input from the community on whether or not you think this issue deserves a "trade with caution" warning and/or bad trade feedback for the person involved. I've withheld the username so as to not unnecessarily give the person a bad rap in the trading community.

    Background - I won a fantasy football BIF where at the beginning of the year we all said what 3 bottles we were putting up with winners getting to draft the bottles they wanted after the season was over. Here's the gist of what happened at the end of the season:

    - This BA contacted me after the bottle draft and offered to ship his 3 bottles soon thereafter, including offering up a replacement bottle for one he'd originally offered up that he accidentally already drank and thus was no longer available to send... kind of a bummer, but the replacement bottle was great, so all good so far.

    - Box arrives a few days later but only 2 of the 3 bottles were in it. The box and all contents inside are in perfect condition - no indication whatsoever that it had been damaged/repacked/etc...

    - I messaged him to let him know that only 2 bottles arrived, assuming that he just made a simple mistake and forgot to include the missing bottle (coincidentally the one bottle form the entire BIF I was most looking forward to).

    - He replies and insists that he is 100% sure that he sent all 3 bottles, so I asked him what the box he used looked like, thinking this would clue us in if one bottle had broken in transit and the others repacked by FedEx in a new/different box.

    - He says it was a (white) USPS Priority Mail box. Problem is, the box I got (as you can see from the photos) was a plain brown unmarked cardboard box.

    - I send him the photos and he changes the story and says "nope that is the exact box I sent" - so at this point I'm confused because before seeing the photos he'd said it was a white USPS Priority Mail box... when I ask him about this he says "oh no I made a mistake and the USPS box was one I sent to someone else that same day..." - seems reasonable enough, except for the bit of doubt already creeping into my mind due to the Elderberry already having to be swapped out.

    - Regardless of this he insists that he sent all 3 and since there was no sign of any damage/leakage his is not liable for any replacement, etc... I sent more photos of everything, and even weighed the two bottles (3.1 and 3.4lbs respectively) + box + packaging materials which came out to about 7.6lbs. The shipping label says the package was 9.8lbs... another head scratcher because if there actually was another 750ml bottle in there it should have weighed well over 10.5lbs.

    Now I'm REALLY confused. I'm not simply making all of this up to try and squeeze an extra bottle out of someone, and I have no real reason to assume anything malicious was going on from his end, but there are 3 aspects of this that make me question things:

    1) Accidentally drinking a bottle you've offered up as entry to a BIF - OK mistakes happen, but that is generally a no-no.

    2) The white USPS priority mail box suddenly turning into a plain brown cardboard box once he saw the photos. Again - a seemingly reasonable explanation on this mixup was offered, but still a bit odd.

    3) He mentioned that from a photo I sent he can see that I cut through the shipping label to open the box, proving that I'm the first one to open it - the issue here is that the seam/opening of the box is along the SIDE (see photos here) due to the flaps being full width and not just meeting in the middle like on most other boxes - something he would likely know/remember if that is indeed the box he used. The shipping label was torn because I just assumed this box was like most others and began cutting down the middle to open it... hopefully this makes sense when you see the photos.

    Anyway - not sure how to resolve this - other friends I've spoken to say the onus is on the shipper, but he is insistent that he sent all 3, regardless of the fact that I only received two...

    Apologies if this is a bit mundane/boring for everyone but I'm just not sure how to handle this or if anything can even be done at this point. I don't want to say the guy is a bad trader or give bad trade feedback unnecessarily, but the fact is that I didn't get what I was supposed to get and he has done nothing to rectify the situation.

    If anyone might find it useful you can check out a PDF of our convo (w/user info hidden) here.


    thoughts?
  2. This is very strange and from the way things have gone I don't know if this will ever be resolved definitively. Personally I don't think he deserves a negative rating... because it's impossible to know what happened for sure... although something does sound fishy from the way these events occurred... but I do think it is on him to send you another bottle or at least replace it with something comparable. If he is a good BA'er, he will. If he doesn't, I would simply not do business with him again. Just my two cents
    JesseLara, cello and thetomG like this.
  3. C20Percent

    C20Percent Savant (315) Virginia Aug 24, 2011

    He likely either drank the bottle, traded the bottle or misplaced the bottle. Probably rolled under his couch while he was packing the box. Either way, you need to inform the person who managed the BIF and kick the guy out for next season. I would not want to trade with him -- would appreciate if you would message me his username so I can avoid going forward.
  4. thetomG

    thetomG Savant (430) Illinois Feb 17, 2010

    Yeah I agree it is very strange indeed. The problem is I didn't exactly "choose" to work with him - I just signed up for what has been a fun BIF for the past couple years... this is the firs tissue we've has as far as I know. He has offered nothing to make it right so I'm likely just S.O.L.
  5. thetomG

    thetomG Savant (430) Illinois Feb 17, 2010

    I did talk with the commish/BIF organizer but he's kind of at a loss on what to do. If I participate in this BIF again next year it will certainly only be if this person isn't allowed back in.
  6. I agree with you totally on this one... this really sucks.. sorry that happened to you.
    thetomG likes this.
  7. cfh64

    cfh64 Advocate (635) Texas Aug 16, 2005

    Sounds shady...at the very least he should send you a comparable replacement bottle and if he doesn't then he's a bad trader IMO. Please pm me his name so I don't make the mistake of trading with him and to make sure he isn't in any BIF's I participate in.
    marleyr, JesseLara, Rainblows and 2 others like this.
  8. jdb288

    jdb288 Aficionado (225) New Jersey Nov 22, 2013

    Tough situation.

    In the "was it repackaged at some point?" scenario, it's up to both parties to be transparent as possible. After reading your conversation, I can understand why you are feeling that the onus is on him to replace. It sounds like you'll have a difficult time getting anything further. I would also recommend keeping him out of the FF league and letting those folks know what happened here.

    "Bad" trader? Gray area, though I would side with you. Someone I would want to deal with? No.
    mythaeus and thetomG like this.
  9. IMO if the bottle didn't get to you, it's on him to make sure it does (or at least to your doorstep, if its stolen from your doorstep that's your issue). I have just as much of an issue, if not more of one with him drinking a bottle he put up as an ante for the BIF. If that bottle helped in determining the draft order than there is no way in hell I would want him anywhere near a fantasy sports BIF that I am in.
    Rainblows, jshusc and thetomG like this.
  10. LopeJuice

    LopeJuice Savant (325) New York Aug 23, 2012

    If your beers arrived in the same box they were sent in, missing one, with no signs of beer leaking, I gotta wonder what the logical explanation is. If they opened it because a bottle was broken you would have a delivery exception and a stained or different box. If the employee heard sloshing and opened the box, it doesn't seem very likely that he would steal 1 beer and send the other two on their way. I think you got got...

    The box was sent with a prepaid FedEx label from looking at your pictures, so the weight could have been whatever the sender wanted it to say. Not necessarily what it actually weighed. Smells fishy to say the least.
    Charlie_Richardson likes this.
  11. beernuts

    beernuts Aficionado (170) Virginia Jan 23, 2014

    I vote bad trader. He easily could be bullshitting you, I don't see why you would give him the benefit of the doubt. Of course he insists he put all 3 in, that's what lying is. If he doesn't want to be labeled a bad trader he should make it up to you.
    marleyr and JesseLara like this.
  12. He needs to send you a bottle to make it right. You only got two bottles. Was this a FedEx slip printed at home or one where you fill it out and the FedEx employee weighs it and puts the weight in manually? Please PM me his name so that I don't end up trading with this person. Thanks!!! Bad trader if you asked me if he doesn't get you another bottle.

    The only way you may see resolution is if you out his name and then he may feel compelled to send you your other bottle. Seems to be how things go a lot lately.
    JesseLara and cfh64 like this.
  13. jaltland

    jaltland Savant (415) Pennsylvania Aug 13, 2009

    It seems everyone wants to know who this person is. I'd like a BM with his username. Or you could just put it out there since he hasn't attempted to make this right, maybe a little public pressure might change his mind.
    JesseLara and cfh64 like this.
  14. marleyr, claaark13, ShanePB and 3 others like this.
  15. Jaycase

    Jaycase Advocate (690) Illinois Jan 13, 2007

    Yeah the tracking weight is meaningless on a pre-printed label. I only see the actual weight on the billing invoices shown on my account so it's not something the receiver can confirm I don't think. I think knowing the actual weight could help here. As both of you agree the package appears to be in the original state, if the sender is able to screen print that section of the invoice showing the actual weight it might be the best evidence that's possible at this point.
    Justinsosmart likes this.
  16. jrnyc

    jrnyc Advocate (620) New York Mar 21, 2010

    I have had a box sent to me where one bottle broke and FedEx repacked the box and sent the rest of the box on its way. Only way I knew was status said damaged and I could tell by the weight on tracking the original bottles were in there. There was no other indicaton something went wrong along the way. Too lazy to do the detective work here, but is it possible bottle broke and box was repacked?

    Or maybe trader in question just screwed up and wont admit it.
    SlightlyStoopidG likes this.
  17. cfh64

    cfh64 Advocate (635) Texas Aug 16, 2005

    Based on every response in this thread it is clear that everyone thinks he is a bad trader/liar if he doesn't make things right. I think you should send him a link to this thread and give him a day or two to respond, if he doesn't then call him out publicly. If you don't, I have a CC and a AR I'll send you for a BVDL but if only the AR gets there then too bad.
    huskermike12 and JamesShoemaker like this.
  18. w_klon

    w_klon Aficionado (190) Oregon Aug 1, 2012

    The fact of the matter is, you didn't receive all the bottles he sent (regardless of whether he actually sent them all). If you knew for a fact the bottle broke, wouldn't you want a replacement bottle? More importantly, wouldn't he want to replace it? Good traders make sure they're trading partner gets the beers they promised. Easy enough.
  19. Is the weight when you track a package the weight you could manually put on a printed out label or the actual weight after it hits the FedEx system?
  20. UHCougar12

    UHCougar12 Savant (465) Texas Feb 21, 2011

    Based on your very clear, easy to read and understand, bullet pointed with direct links to pictures within the explanation, and a pdf copy. I'd say you have better things to do than try and falsely oust someone on a forum to gain a beer. Saying that, the sender needs to pony up the other bottle. At minimum by either admitting fault and sending another bottle, or simply sending another bottle to make things right.
  21. I don't think there's much more he will say. From the PDF, he's not accusing the OP of lying, but since the OP was the only person to open the box.... Essentially, "I'm not saying it's aliens..."

    One strange part is that it took nearly 2 weeks for him at one point to get back to the OP (at "Sooooo...any updates?" part). Like others here, I have no reasons to believe the OP would go through all this trouble just for 1 beer.
  22. tommyz

    tommyz Savant (485) Michigan May 28, 2007

    Your saying he is falsely trying to out someone? Does not look false to me..
  23. Definitely, but he should see that the general consensus is "make good on your commitment."
  24. UHCougar12

    UHCougar12 Savant (465) Texas Feb 21, 2011

    No, I'm saying he clearly has better things to do than to falsely try and oust someone. I guess it reads both ways, but if you read the rest I'm saying the sender is in the wrong and needs to complete the trade.
    tommyz likes this.
  25. Sarge3130

    Sarge3130 Savant (360) Pennsylvania May 13, 2012

    This same sort of thing happened to one of my boxes this winter. I shipped three 3 lambics out to Arizona, only two arrived at the destination. Box was in perfect condition when it arrived. I'm assuming that they froze, one burst and UPS repacked the box. I could not replace the missing bottle and I was never contacted by UPS. Luckily the guy I was trading with didn't ship out his box yet so we just reduced some of the bottles coming my way on his end.

    I guess what i'm saying is, if he said he shipped them, I would give him the benefit of the doubt...
  26. cfh64

    cfh64 Advocate (635) Texas Aug 16, 2005

    True, but even if he sent all 3 he is still responsible for replacing the missing bottle especially since he drank the first bottle that was agreed upon.
  27. UHCougar12

    UHCougar12 Savant (465) Texas Feb 21, 2011

    But why do we always assume that the sender is at fault? Not saying this particular OP is lying, because in this particular case I personally lean towards the OP in that his story is legit, since the sender had already done a few questionable things. But in most threads I read everyone tends to lean on the side of the recipient(or OP majority of the time) in that the sender didn't put everything in the box. I'm just curious as to why it is always that way? Couldn't we just as easily assume the recipient took a bottle out, and took pictures with one missing? I'm just curious why its always the senders fault if a bottle is "missing".
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
    mythaeus likes this.
  28. Sarge3130

    Sarge3130 Savant (360) Pennsylvania May 13, 2012

    You're right. My situation was slightly different as my trade partner didn't send out his box yet so we adjuted on the fly. If I had received his box, I would have either shipped back some of his bottles or shipped out an agreed upon replacement to him (which I had to do with a different trade partner, don't ship Lambics in the winter :)

    My post was more in reference to the fact that UPS absolutely opened my sent box, removed a damaged product, and still sent it to the requested ship to address without contacting me.
    cfh64 likes this.
  29. @thetomG is obviously a thief. Send me your address and I'll send you a beer, dick.
  30. No sign of leakage, no sign the box was ever opened by anyone other than you.. I agree that special herbs is a fantastic beer, but don't steal...
  31. juliusseizure

    juliusseizure Savant (420) New York Feb 11, 2009

    I once had a box that got replaced along the way by FedEx and did not have a shipment exception or anything. Just two bottles got taken out, repacked and sent along. I immediately sent replacement bottles. Got lucky I had multiples of the bottles in question.
    jrnyc likes this.
  32. cfh64

    cfh64 Advocate (635) Texas Aug 16, 2005

    Very well could be the other way around and I don't have an answer other than why would someone want to put forth the effort to slander someone else's name for no reason? I dunno.
  33. It seems one of three things happened, in order from least likely to most likely (IMO):

    1) OP is lying
    2) His sender is lying
    3) FedEx repackaged the box and took the one beer, for whatever reason

    Sender should probably make good on the bottle but it's not a clear-cut situation
    claaark13 likes this.
  34. C20Percent

    C20Percent Savant (315) Virginia Aug 24, 2011

    My allegiance is shifting toward CardsWinAgain. His trade history is positive. No known issues in his other BIFs. Why would he not send a bottle and say he did?
  35. thetomG

    thetomG Savant (430) Illinois Feb 17, 2010

    This is a ridiculous statement. I went to every effort I could imagine to hide your username while simply trying to get feedback from the community as this is something I've never experienced in 5 years of trading & BIFs, have been incredibly patient, and have not once accused you of anything malicious. I'm simply stating the facts. There are dozens of other BAs and trading partners that would vouch for me. The bottom line is that I didn't get the bottles I was supposed to get. I contacted you immediately to alert you of the situation. You've done nothing to try to make it right.

    Trust me - I've got more than enough to offer if I simply wanted to secure a bottle of Special Herbs. I was only looking to gauge the community's feelings on what to me is a very difficult situation to resolve.

    Also - you've had my address all along and could've just "sent me my beer, dick" anytime over the past few months.
    nsheehan, byronic, JohnB87 and 15 others like this.
  36. It could've simply been an honest mistake on his part and that he honestly believed that it was sent, but it wasn't. I just have a really hard time believing the OP would go through this extraordinary effort to get a beer that he has already gotten.
    UHCougar12 likes this.
  37. cfh64

    cfh64 Advocate (635) Texas Aug 16, 2005

    One thing is clear, this thread is going nowhere and I doubt we'll ever have a definitive answer of what really happened. Another unsolved BA mystery.
    nsheehan and Sarge3130 like this.
  38. thetomG

    thetomG Savant (430) Illinois Feb 17, 2010

    I agree that he has good feedback and already stated that his initial actions following the bottle draft led me to trust that he was a solid dude. That's why this is all so strange. I think it says something that I'm not the one making accusations and calling people names here.
    JesseLara and Rainblows like this.
  39. kmello69

    kmello69 Advocate (505) Texas Nov 27, 2011

    Why would he drink a bottle he put up as part of his entrance to the BIF in the first place? He hasnt exactly shown himself to be stellar in this situation.

    My personal opinion is that until a guy is holding the bottles I've sent him in his hands, its my responsibility. Period.
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