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Discussion in 'Midwest' started by ToadiesForCody, Mar 26, 2014.
he has been grandfathered in
So is this the dog pile thread on Four Firkins?
If I think about how much money I've given Old Chicago for several seriously crappy t-shirts I really fail to see the problem. If you don't like kickstarter/indigogo don't fund anything. If you don't like Four Firkins, don't shop there.
I'm sure everyone here has intimate knowledge of Four Firkins, their business, and their intentions. And if not, why would anyone make such assumptions? Oh right, because this is BS, err BA.
Ah, so you're one of the $1000 donators. Which two beers are you going to reserve?
Yeah, but...you did get food and beer for the money you gave Old Chicago in order to earn that t-shirt, right?
i have had great food and brew at old chicago but they have never asked me for money to expand their chain of stores
Not really the same thing...you received goods and services for that money!
FF business is to sell beer, they want to sell more of it, and they want even more than the price of beer to make it happen!! This is no different (and no less sleazy) than seat licensing at the new (and future) stadiums in town. you can spend $25 on a 4 pack of BCS, plus $500 for the right to spend that $25....You can find any beer in this area if you really look, and if enough people buy into this you won't be able to find them at FF..seems like a ridiculous business model to me...They're scared of TW (as they should be) and want to expand before they should (according to their bottom line) otherwise they wouldn't be asking for a handout, they'd be selling stock!!!
Fair enough...just seemed odd that a Californian was commenting in the Midwest section, in a thread about a small bottle-shop.
So they haven't actually lost maximum12 as a customer?
Nobody ever moves to a different state...
Hence the question.
Some solid points here. I assume for most of us our friends and families ask us for beer advice and where to shop and what to drink. I have heard the same response over and over again. "That's just dumb" of them to do. Obivously my friends are no wordsmiths .
And he's an all-around great guy! Too bad he ditched us for an awesome job in Cali...
Yeah, your comparison is pretty bad. Old Chicago didn't ask you to give them more money then the normal price of the beer just so they can open another chain. I do like kickstarter/indigogo, but not for what seems to be a chance for them to get money from their customers while providing little in return. If Old Chicago asked you to pay $10 for a $5 beer so they could expand, your comparison would be slightly better. Why make the assumption? Because they did a poor job explaining why they are asking for money from their customers. Also, I don't really blame them for doing this. People clearly will hand over their money out of loyalty or whatever. Good for them. From my stand point, it's not really cool, and so while I still like the store, this tarnishes it some. Plus, I want to know how the hell they managed to get financing but somehow don't have the downpayment? What bank is going to do that?
I'm trying to figure out why people are so upset about this. I see a small business trying to raise money by using a crowd funding web site. A web site where everyday people listen to a businesses pitch and decide whether or not giving that business money is worth it to them. What's the fucking problem? Should they talk to a bank and get a loan and have to pay interest on it? Why? Why would they do that when that can raise capitol in a different, more equitable way? Seems like a no brainer. It's not like they are breaking the law. They aren't stealing from us. The whole process seems to be above boards. This is all so cornfusing.
Equitable way? Errrr, huh? No one has claimed they are breaking a law. No one is claiming they are stealing from anyone. No one is saying what they are doing is not above boards(?). Please put your strawman away.
Now, they are already going to a bank to get financing. So they will already have a loan and will be paying interest on it. They need to put up a down payment and that's what they are asking for. My argument against this is that if after 6 years of business, they don't have their own $50,000 to put up, then it doesn't seem like a good business model, and why would I think a second store will help them that much. If they do have the $50,000, which I'd guess they do, then they are just asking for money so they don't have to dig in their own pockets. Take the risk away from them. Which I've said, is smart business, getting cheap money is good for them, but as a customer, I'm not giving money for minimal return, zero investment in the company just so they can make more money. If one store does not have a sustainable business model, and yet has been open for 6 years, I'm curious on how this second store will change that.
This is the fourth page of the thread. I bet if you read the first three, you'll be able to figure it out.
They are probably seeking the 20% down as required by most lenders on a "commercial" loan. This way they minimize out-of-pocket expense. As far as creating "sustainability"... with a second store comes a second set of expenses relative to operations. Yes, there will be an additional revenue stream but at this point, how much opportunity is still out there? The Woodbury market (and south-east metro) is already saturated with retail and the addition of his store plus two others that are coming (including Total Wine) makes no sense. While time will tell, my guess is there isn't enough busine$$ to sustain additional competitors. And when you factor in how tight things have become in obtaining limited products, they may encounter challenges filling this store in a manner consistent with their other location. If "xyz" brand only ships 30 cases into the state of a given beer, they will not be able to double their allocation from the wholesaler because there isn't any more to give. This is the reality we all face and until the "bubble" we're in subsides, things won't be changing any time soon...
I think I will have to buy me some Schmaltz's Alt tomorrow, so nice to find good beer all over the state.
And since Schells isn't "craft beer" does FF even sell it?
Just picked up a 12 pack of saga.
Well played. But he RT's Coffee Dad so he is clearly in touch with what the general public likes.
140 posts to get to a Saga comment?!? That has to be some sort of record for the Midwest forum.
After discussions with many friends, competitor liquor store employees and owners, and thinking about this from a much larger, community perspective, I have come full circle on this project. you can now countme as a solid, contributing supporter.
Why would you go to a bank and take out a loan with interest when you can take 5 minutes, post a glorified note on the internet, and have random strangers GIVE YOU MONEY. Nobody is being forced to click "donate." There is a minor return on investment given that you have some advantages as the store afterwards as a donator, but for the most part, it's FREE MONEY. Isn't this every business man's dream? Hell, Goodwill has made a cottage industry out of selling for profit items that they didn't pay for. It's the perfect system if you can get away with it.
I just picked up a 6 pack of Miller Lite.
I was a bit put off by them when I asked if they had any Sucks! left 10 days after release and the guy I talked to only responded with "No, we are a destination store, that never sits on the shelf here".
So i swung by Byerlys across the highway and bought a case.
I like your thinking.
I tried the new/revamped Horizion red IPA for the first time this week and its not quite as good as I remember. Also, I revisited Rochefort 10. I forgot how delicious this beer is.
Difference: Goodwill is an actual charity. Pretty sure a donation to FF is not tax-deductible and will probably do little to help feed starving children or whatever silly social welfare project those scamps over at Goodwill are up to these days.
Incorrect... Goodwill is not a charity. Goodwill takes all your clothes, sells them, and donates none of the money to anybody. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND AS THERE ARE BETTER CHARITIES.
I guess I don't care anymore. Either people really like the Firkins and want to support them or they think they are going to get little for lots. They can't think they are going to get much for what they re giving. Let the people give and FF take. That's how it works. People seem to want to donate. Let them if they want to. I can't fault them as I don't know what their reasons for donating are. I certainly would rather spend $1000 there and get beer and they get profits. Some people just have more money than time I guess. Hail the rich. It's not like we are all poor or we would be drinking Natural Ice but some of us (not me) have too much money and need friends or things to feel good about.
Exactly right. And you aren't required to give money to them. They are up to $18,000+, so other people see things differently. They aren't going to lose $1 in sales because of this.
But, but, what about word of mouth? This will be their ruin I tell ya.
I agree but there are always going to be enough people to replace the people who don't shop there unfortunately. People want a craft beer store and they do seem to provide. That being said they are on the other side of town and I have only been there a couple of times. I would rather support the stores who appreciate my business and don't try to take advantage of their notoriety. I would rather support people who have treated me right over the years. It's a handshake type of thing. We support our locals and they know that so they try their best to do the same for us. How can you help your locals who have always supported you when you basically auction the best beers off? It just doesn't make sense. They will survive by forgetting about your support. Let people donate if they are dumb enough to donate. I can see small amounts but unless you are rich you can't afford to and those people are probably gonna get the beers anyway. Unfortunately people will forget about all this. But the other stores that you support will not forget about it. They appreciate your business. Stores can't be all things to all people and neither can consumers. As a consumer I am sure you expect a little respect if you are a regular customer who tries to support the little stores. In the end, it's all about bigger stores, chains, and the mom and pops. I would rather support the mom and pop. They need your support. Walmarts of liquor like FF wants to be and places like Total Wine are not about the normal person. I can tell you Total Wine told me they didn't have something they did even after searching cause they have dummies who don't know their product. I hate when people at a liquor store ask me if I need any help unless I do have a question because 99% of the time I know more than them. It's like going to best Buy and having some little kid try to tell you about stuff they don't know about
Thanks, chain email my grandma sent me. You're wrong, but in any case, I really don't give two $hits about what FF does with their business. If this works well for them, they open their second, third, 500th store, great. It just doesn't sit well with me, but to be honest, I rarely shop there anyway and I don't imagine they're really going to miss the $50 a year I spend there.
I think its an abusive of people's good will. Ive shopped there before, I probably would have in the future, and now I'm not. They might not be losing $1 in sales TO YOU because of this, but they are to me (and others, by the sound of it). If they don't have the money to put down on their own, aren't willing to seek investors, and instead have to beg from the public, they could probably use all the $1 from the rest of us that they can muster. They probably will be successful with their exploiation in the end, but it doesn't mean we have to be complicit in it or are silly in voicing our disagreement with the business tactics.
Think of when BMC pushes out the little guys' shelf space in liquor stores- doesn't mean I have to give BMC money by buying it, doesnt mean BMC wont be successful because people see things differently, and BMC sure as hell ont lose any sales because of it. But it sure isn't cool...
That's my understanding of how distributors bully the little stores. They say if you buy a bunch of this shit beer and put up a display then we'll be more likely to give you more of the good beer you want. That's how it works. I've heard it straight from the mouths of store owners. They don't want to have to carry shit beer or at least as much as they are basically forced to but unless they do they won't get much when the distributors are talking at the table about who gets what. It's how things go and don't think it isn't. Unfortunately the more InBev and others buy good breweries the more the bribery goes. Get your head out of the sand. The distributors are like the beer mafia so to speak and they control who gets what. It's reality. Once you realize it you'll be more compassionate for the mom and pop stores who don't have all the latest flavors because they weren't allowed to due to big business. Big business is what screws up most of the other parts of the world and this is no different.
This means nothing without specific examples.
I can't go into specific examples without possibly harming the owners of a few shops I know. Take it for what you will. Maybe they make them have a huge bud display when they don't want to sell bud but they are FORCED to do it because they also want to carry beers that their customers want. If you can't understand that then I can't help you out. This sort of stuff happens all the time to smaller businesses and even bigger ones if they want to get certain products. It saddens me to see this as I know they want to carry certain beers that others get but they just can't get them. Comprende? It's not how business should go. They should be able to sell what they want without having to bow down and take up space for shitty beers.
@evilgenius...you have to know this stuff goes on. Do you think I'm some sort of whacko that has no idea how the alcohol business works? You have to know it goes on. Come on. This is just basic corporate business. I hate to bring it to drug terms but there are similarities. The more you sell the cheaper you get things and you get more access to more things. I HATE to use that example but maybe you can understand that. I don't know who you are. I'm sure you are a nice guy. But the two things are very close unfortunately. The more business you do the more free you are to get the better product, etc... I HATE to make the comparison but ..... damn man if you don't understand that then I don't think you will so we should just agree to disagree as I don't think you understand business.
Well, that's not factually correct. They will lose some sales. Already know people not wanting to go there. Is it enough to make any sort of impact? No. And yes, they've raised $18,000, and that's basically stalled the last few days. Sure they'll still meet their goal, but after that initial rush, it's pretty much stopped. Luckily for them even if they miss their goal they get to keep the cash.
No one has claimed they will be ruined, so please stop with this silliness.
Separate names with a comma.