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Hop Stands

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by 33nickadams, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. 33nickadams

    33nickadams Savant (280) Michigan Apr 12, 2010

    In the new edition of BYO there is an article on hop stands and a Heady Topper clone. I've never done a hop stand and have some questions for those of you who have. I've always thought that you wanted to cool as fast as possible after your boil, so if you're doing a hop stand at say 30 minutes post-boil, is an infection of the wort still possible? Also, any suggestions on how to do it correctly? I have a wort chiller, so I'm assuming that is all the equipment you would really need. Thanks in advance!
     
  2. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Moderator (640) Georgia Feb 12, 2012 Staff Member

    I do it all the time with no issues.

    That said.. the Heady Topper clone in there is pretty far off, IMO.

    You really need some Conan, and whatnot to get it close. And nix the crystal anything.
     
  3. 33nickadams

    33nickadams Savant (280) Michigan Apr 12, 2010

    What's Conan?
     
  4. The yeast used for Heady
     
  5. NiceFly

    NiceFly Savant (375) Tajikistan Dec 22, 2011

    I can with certainty, disagree.
    Muhhaaaaa.
     
    telejunkie likes this.
  6. I do hop stands/whirlpools for 45 min. No problems as the wort is over 180F. If you ha e do e a good boil you will not have DM, but keep the lid off so if any forms it flashes off.

    Commercial brewers have long whirlpool times. What that does for the hops flavor/aroma is what people are trying to do.
     
  7. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (385) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    "ha e do" DM or DMS? Anyone been hitting the homebrew???

    I've heard two school of thoughts with putting a seal on the kettle after the boil. I'm told that there is a half life to the pre-cursors for DMS and once they are gone then they are gone. Then someone that knows more then I will take the other stance.

    So which is it?
     
  8. DMS. Darned phone keyboard.
     
  9. Treb0R

    Treb0R Savant (290) Oregon Dec 12, 2012

    Perhaps the effects (if any) are negated by quickly bringing the wort down below 170 F before employing a slower cooling hop stand. When I do this, I no longer use the wort chiller to "quick chill" after I toss in the aroma steep hops. I set the kettle in an ice bath and let it cool the rest of the way.

    I consistently implement 30-60 minute hop stands under the 175-180 F isomerization point with no infection/sanitation issues whatsoever in all of the last 20 batches since I first started doing hop stands.

    Yeah, that Heady clone attempt in the BYO is way off for a multitude of reasons.
     
  10. As long as one is over 150F no problem. Was stating my procedure for the OP.

    I do know guys doing 110-120F stands and they don't seem to be having issues.

    Why do go guys think the Heady clone was off? Never had it or looked into it, so I am curious.
     
  11. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Savant (420) California Mar 22, 2011

    Curious... have you tried anything below 45 min? I've been trying out 10, 20, 30 minute stands and have, noticed the beers have had better flavor the longer stand. Granted, this has not been examined in a scientific manner (e.g. controls, DOE parameterized, etc.), but seems to be an interesting trend.
     
  12. Treb0R

    Treb0R Savant (290) Oregon Dec 12, 2012

    There is better character from a longer stand...up to a point. Though I would never do one that is less than 20 minutes. Even though I add them around 160 F, there is still a decent period of time during the steep that my hops are below 150 F. I usually quick chill to just below 170 F, then toss in my aroma steep hops and slow chill it down to 60 F over the course of 30-60 minutes. On average, I tend to let it ride closer to 50-60 minutes. The aroma is always out of this world.
     
  13. The idea was from a talk covering the Rock Bottom experiment. Flavor was maximized with a long stand. Then dry hop for aroma.
     
  14. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Savant (420) California Mar 22, 2011

    I remember that one. Will reread it (IIRC its referenced in For the Love of Hops as well). I tend to heavily dry hop hoppy stuff anyway as I always feel my beers never pick up the really punchy aroma profile (or flavor) until they've been dry hopped.
     
  15. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Advocate (595) Colorado Jan 20, 2012

    I cut my flame, toss in my hops at about 180 and let it sit for about half an hour and then chill it. Never had any infection issues. I really just want to get a randal and be done.
     
  16. 33nickadams

    33nickadams Savant (280) Michigan Apr 12, 2010

    So let me get this straight-sorry if this is redundant-

    1) Cool with chiller to 170
    2) Add hops
    3) Continue to cool to pitching temp

    Does that sound about right?
     
  17. You want to continue to chill only after you've let the hops steep for a certain amount of time.

    Anyone have a copy of the recipe from BYO?
     
  18. 33nickadams

    33nickadams Savant (280) Michigan Apr 12, 2010

     
  19. Treb0R

    Treb0R Savant (290) Oregon Dec 12, 2012

    I continue to chill during the hop stand. The only difference is instead of a fast 15 minutes or less chill with my wort chiller, I'm cooling slowly over the course of 30-60 minutes from below isomerization point to pitch temps. Though, you can still use the wort chiller to quick cool from 212-170 F.
     
  20. LopeJuice

    LopeJuice Savant (335) New York Aug 23, 2012

    great info in here, keep it coming! any preferred guides on hop standing?
     
  21. wspscott

    wspscott Savant (490) Kentucky May 25, 2006

    LopeJuice likes this.
  22. ditch

    ditch Aficionado (240) Virginia Aug 3, 2009

    Hop stand temps are a matter of opinion. I throw in my flashout hops and steep for atleast 20 min without any chilling. Then chill and transfer. I also add all my IPA hops with only 10 minutes left in the boil. I'm not one for a sharp bitterness, so I get all my IBUs in the last 10 min plus the hop stand. I will begin more experimenting with longer hops stands and whirlpools down the road, but I am getting the flavors and aromas I want with my current methods.
     
  23. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (385) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    Thanks for the link.

    Am I missing something?

    So they advise against adding Gypsum? Down in the comments section it looks like the ppm's are listed. I figure a Chloride / Sulfate ratio of 1.55 which is supposed to favor malty.
     
  24. wspscott

    wspscott Savant (490) Kentucky May 25, 2006

    No idea about the water adjustments. I thought the description of the Rock Bottom "experiment" was useful.
     
  25. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Savant (420) California Mar 22, 2011

    People do it differently, here are some of the schemes I've seen utilized or used myself:

    Scheme 1:
    1) Add hops
    2) Stir frequently to get whirlpool, steep hops 30-40 minutes, keep temp above 170F [Do not cool during steep]
    3) Cool to pitching temp

    Scheme 2:
    1) Cool with chiller to 170F
    2) Add Hops
    3) Stir frequently to get whirlpool, steep hops 30-40 minutes [Do not cool during steep]
    4) Cool to pitching temp

    Scheme 3:
    Scheme 1 (steps 1 & 2)
    3) Cool to 110-130 F
    4) Add Hops, steep 30-40 minutes [Do not cool during steep]
    5) Cool to pitching temp

    Scheme 4:
    The one you listed. Never heard of anyone doing a slow chill during whirlpool/stand, so can't comment from personal experience.

    Personal preference is Scheme 1, as I'm using a pump, recirculation arm (2 ball valves, 1 recirc, 1 to hopback) a plate chiller and hop back (No step cooling), and am using the whirlpool addition to obtain flavor and bitterness (Pretty substantial contribution, especially with large doses of flameout/Whirlpool hops). Its worth trying on your own and figuring out what works for you, on your own system (e.g. kettle setup, chiller type, etc.)
    One thing worth mentioning is cold break formation & chill haze may be affected by slow chilling (at least theoretically), however this is kind of a moot point if you're cold crashing your beer and fining with PVPP & Biofine (which I do) to remove any chill haze, polyphenols or yeast in suspension.
     
  26. Treb0R

    Treb0R Savant (290) Oregon Dec 12, 2012

    Scheme 5:
    1) Cool with chiller to 170F
    2) Whirlpool in pellet hops for the warm hopstand.
    3) Steep 30-60 minutes [slow cool down to 60 F during the length of the steep]

    Scheme 6:
    1) Add 1 min. or direct flameout addition with pellet hops, for further isomerization as well as flavor-aroma.
    2) Cool with chiller to 170F
    3) Whirlpool in more pellet hops for the warm hopstand.
    4) Steep 30-60 minutes [slow cool down to 60 F during the length of the steep]

    Never had adverse effects from slow chilling wort from 170 F to 60 F. Clarity is unaffected despite not adding gelatin, cold-crashing, or racking to secondary.

    I don't see any differences in regard to cold break formation or chill haze whether slow chilling during these temps. vs. not chilling during the hopstand. In both cases, you are focusing on the hopstand and are not reaching pitch temps. in a quick 15 minutes.
     
  27. 33nickadams

    33nickadams Savant (280) Michigan Apr 12, 2010

    Thanks for the great info! I see there are many different ways to do a hop stand. I'm sure this will take my ipa's to the next level!
     
  28. koopa

    koopa Champion (800) New Jersey Apr 20, 2008

    I read a post on some homebrewing forum that claimed Ray Daniels is now recommending an 80 minute hop stand to gain maximum effect! Perhaps a report he gave at a 2009 NHC conference I believe.
     
    barfdiggs likes this.
  29. telejunkie

    telejunkie Savant (340) Vermont Sep 14, 2007

    that was based on the Rock Bottom experiment talked about above. The study showed that more hop flavor was achieved with an 80 hop stand compared to a 50 minute hop stand. Differences were small but conclusive. I'm usually ready to pack it in after 30 minutes hop stand so only once have I gone more than 45 minutes. John Kimmich even recommended shortening the hop stand to less than 45 minutes for the heady topper clone.
     
    koopa likes this.
  30. From my experience a 15 min hop stand is more than sufficient if a large flavor addition is included at 5 or 10 min.
     
    DubbelMan likes this.
  31. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Savant (420) California Mar 22, 2011

    I remember you mentioning BYO was going to post your Heady Clone... was that it in the Hopstands Article posted above?
     
  32. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (385) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    I've found that there is a direct proportion between how long the hop-hot-stand is and how much stuff that I still need to clean up. It's really amazing how it works.

    I do suggest that for the first try be conservative on amounts, it does add bitterness. It marries flavor w/bitterness, but there is a lot of bitterness. I've heard that you figure your IBU's for 20 minutes. Sounds like a good starting point.
     

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