Interesting article on the Reinheitsgebot

Discussion in 'Germany' started by patto1ro, Feb 7, 2015.

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  1. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Yep. Matter of fact, the first mention of the term "purity" in the context of the "bayerische Landesordnung von 1516" (the original title of the document) was apparently from a meeting of the Bavarian state legislature from 4 March 1918. The original text(s) made no mention of the term.
     
  2. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Good point, and this is indeed a good reason for separating the ingredients list from the issue of quality.
     
  3. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Here's where I'll need some help from the German speakers.

    The text simply says that "only barley, hops, and water can be used or utilized" (allein Gersten, Hopfen und Wasser verwendet und gebraucht werden sollen).”

    If “only barley” can be used doesn’t that by definition mean that other grains like wheat and rye were not allowed?

    Edit: Whoops just got some new items for the "honey-do" list. Later.
     
  4. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Well, knowing that may help somewhat, but wasn't "Bavaria" during this period confined to the unified Dutchy comprised of Bavaria-Munich, Bavaria-Ingolstadt, Bavaria-Straubing, and Bavaria-Landshut (with some agreements with the Habsburgs)? In other words, pretty much the whole of Franconia wasn't included in "Bavaria" at the time. So while wheat and other grains may be excluded from the Bavarian RHG, they weren't from the Nuernberg and/or Bamberg versions.
     
    #24 herrburgess, Feb 8, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015
  5. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Well I don't recollect exactly (if I ever knew :slight_smile: ) what constituted Bavaria in 1515-1516, but the difference between the Bavarian RHG and the other two you mention starts to be come interesting in that it leads us to the question of why the Duchy of Bavaria chose to put in place a new law which differed from those two and did exclude wheat from use in Brewing.
     
    #25 drtth, Feb 8, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015
  6. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Sure. And I, personally, think that, of the three possible scenarios listed above, the most likely would have been to retain a monopoly on Weizenbier -- as it was particularly favored by the royals in the Ingolstadt part of the Dutchy. I still haven't seen any evidence -- other than speculation about the weather -- about it being primarily a bread protection rather than a beer protection law.
     
    #26 herrburgess, Feb 8, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015
  7. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Interesting, so what is your thinking about why would the royals would have felt any need to limit Wizen brewing for themselves if there were an adequate supply of grains? Why not just brew it and let the regular brewers do so as well?

    BTW the weather bit isn't just speculation. There is indeed evidence that there was massive flooding and destruction in a number of areas of Germany in 1515.
     
  8. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Well, as you point out, they didn't just limit Weizen. I believe I have read something about the specific popularity of Weizenbier among the ruling family of Bavaria-Ingolstadt, so perhaps they simply made an exception for them. I don't otherwise know how widespread the popularity of Weizenbier was otherwise throughout the Dutchy. If it were not widely popular, I doubt the effect of banning brewing with wheat would have met with any more resistance than that of brewing with, say, rye. But I'd have to consult more primary source material here to say for sure. Again, maybe Ron can provide brewing records from this era?
     
  9. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Sounds good. BTW what documentation does the author of the article Ron introduced provide to support his thinking that the motivation of the Duchy was to establish and maintain a monopoly on Wizen? If Weizen weren't popular or at least being consumed by folks outside the nobility they already had such a monopoly, no?
     
  10. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    ...and , no, the fact that poor weather occurred is not speculation, but the implication that it led directly to the passage of the RHG is. If there were wheat shortages -- and if the conditions existed throughout the area and even continent -- there should be plentiful primary source material to support a claim tjat wheat was in low supply and/or restricted for use in baking. Maybe someone can provide such material here, too.
     
  11. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Exactly, one type of indirect information called for here to resolve ambiguity.
     
  12. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    He actually makes the claim that Weizen was "hugely popular" in the Dutchy and that its production and sale were given over solely to the state post-RHG. ("Auf den zweiten Blick aber offenbart sich doch recht schnell, dass das Brauen mit Weizen mitnichten völlig eingestellt wurde – nein, es wurde lediglich „verstaatlicht“.)

    It looks, therefore, like Weizenbier was seen as a potentially lucrative business for the state to make a ton of money on by controlling it -- even going so far as to set up Wheat Beer Taverns" specifically dedicated to its sale. ("Bei Hofe war es in Bayern nach wie vor erlaubt, mit Weizen zu brauen, Weißbier herzustellen und so mit den reichlich fließenden Einnahmen aus dem Vertrieb des Weißbiers den bayerischen Staatssäckel zu füllen. Über Herzog Maximilian I. heißt es, er habe ab 1602 „diese hervorragende Geldquelle voll aus (genutzt), errichtete weitere Weißbrauhäuser im Land, zog kurz darauf das Recht, Weißbier zu brauen, im ganzen Bayernland für sich und sein Haus ein und hielt sich damit jegliche Konkurrenz vom Leib. Dieses Regal galt bis zum Jahre 1789“ (nach Fred Klinger, Braugewerbe und Braukunst mitten in Bayern).)

    The Bamberg RHG also mentions how the state seemed to focus its taxation on certain types of beer (i.e. those of higher quality).
     
  13. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    So in some ways its looking as if "greedy Dutchy" is quite plausible....
     
  14. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I would think so, yes. And its greed seems to extend to the notion that "better beer will bring in better profits."
     
  15. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    I think we might go there except for the fact that with Weizen being popular those beers should also be favored and promoted as being "better beer" to bring in more profits rather than restricted to the select few. Even that early there was an emerging merchant class who had disposable income....
     
  16. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Well, from the looks of it they weren't actually being restricted (as I myself surmised), but rather that they were now being sold officially by the state to the thirsty fans of the popular style -- complete with designated drinking halls, etc. (Maybe kinda like ABI taking over popular "craft" brands and expanding their distribution while retaining their coveted status?)
     
  17. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    So now we need to do some date checking as to how long after the 1516 such sales were being done and when such things as the beer hals were established. Timing here may be critical in that if there was a significant delay between passage of the RHG and susequent sales, etc. of Weizen the greed may well have followed come along later.

    BTW

    Here are a few links which illustrate the widespread pervasiveness of the idea of famine playing a causal role for the RHG.

    Unfortunately only one of them cites another source in German and my wife is wanting to go out to a book sale now....

    Later.


    http://blogs.transparent.com/german/the-reinheitsgebot-whats-the-story/



    http://www.redoakbrewery.com/purity.php



    http://germanfood.about.com/od/drinks/a/History-Of-Brewing-In-Germany.htm
     
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  18. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I've seen the oft-repeated claims. Agree that what we need now are primary-source numbers and such.
     
  19. NierBier

    NierBier Initiate (0) Jan 3, 2015 Germany

    I am a total novice to this topic, so forgive my interruption into this great conversation, but wanted to offer another link that shows the widespread pervasiveness of the idea price control on food had a lot to do with the RHG of 1516. Private Brauereien Verband

    I have been spending a lot of time in the Chiemgau region of late, where I have found a lot of private breweries, and I check them out whenever I can.
     
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  20. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    No, its not an interruption, it’s a contribution. When we're trying to figure out what went on inside someones private chambers and head about 500 years ago, every little bit helps. Especially when there probably is no private written record of how and why a decree took the form it did when it became a public action.
     
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