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IPA recipe feedback, pls (extract)

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by LAWbrewing, Jan 29, 2013.

  1. LAWbrewing

    LAWbrewing Zealot (80) Wisconsin Nov 23, 2010

    Estimated Info

    OG: 1.065 FG: 1.015 ABV: 6.6%
    Color: 7.0 SRM 63.6 IBUs

    Grain Bill
    7.0lbs Extra Light DME
    1.5lbs Crystal Malt – 20L
    1.0lbs Pale Malt (2-row)
    1.0lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine

    Hop Schedule
    0.5oz Columbus (FWH)
    1.0oz Centennial (60min)
    1.0oz Cascade (15min)
    1.0oz Glacier (5min)
    1.0oz Cascade (Dry hop – 10 days)
    0.5oz Columbus (Dry hop – 7 days)

    Yeast
    White Labs California Ale – WLP001 (4.0L starter)


    Some questions:
    1. I've always used Wyeast smack packs so I am interested in trying the dry yeast from White Labs. Any first-timer dry yeast suggestions?
    2. Ultimately, I'm going to use this yeast cake to pitch into a IIPA. As long as I time my rack to secondary with IIPA brew day, can I just rack from brew pot onto the cake followed by mucho agitation?
    3. Any thoughts on the hop schedule? Are my boil times and dry hop schedules efficient/useful?
    Other thoughts/comments/questions are most welcome. Cheers.
     
  2. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (395) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    WLP001 isn't a dry yeast.

    For first time brewers I'd use WYeast. I like the smack pack. While it's nice to proof your yeast, with most supply chains that shouldn't be an issue. Especially with the neutral Ale yeast strain cause it sells fast. It's more that you can feed what should be an already strong cell w/nutrients. Now I do use WL the most, the packaging sucks. But making beer is more about yeast and fermentation than anything else. The Wyeast packs can forgo much of the starter process.

    If your new to brewing I wouldn't use the yeast cake. I'm saying that because it's a yeast/turb/old hops cake. When the fermentation go nuclear you don't want all that crap being recycled through your beer.

    As far as your recipe I'd throw in some flame out hops. How do you chill? If you are going to drink this beer fast and you chill slow you could just do FWH and knock out hops.
     
  3. Hate to be "that guy" but that's a lot of crystal. Between 13% crystal, 8% carapils, and the inability to control the fermentability of the extract its going to be quite sweet . Also based on the grains I assume you're doing a partial mash (maybe a bad assumption)--any info on temp, thickness etc?
     
    JimSmetana likes this.
  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Advocate (715) Wisconsin Aug 13, 2005

    The dry yeast you would be looking for is probably Fermentis US-05. It is similar to WLP001 and WY1056. Everyone has an opinion on hop schedules. Yours looks good to me. I like less crystal and less carapils. If the recipe were mine, I would probably drop each of those by 50-100%, and I would use extract or table sugar to make up for the lost gravity.
     
  5. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (415) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    But you are correct. And it needs to be said.

    There is a developing beer recipe as we speak in this forum. The "Averagly Perfect IPA" has a recipe so far of Crystal 40 = 5% and Carapils = 3%. And there was quite a bit of debate that that was even too high.

    Developing your own IPA recipe is a fine practice. But it is always better to underutilize crystal and carapils then decide to add more next time then to add too much the first time and have a beer difficult to enjoy. The beer will still be good if you didn't use enough.
     
    GreenKrusty101 and pweis909 like this.
  6. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Champion (800) Texas May 21, 2010

    I'd vote for "cut the crystal" too. Use 1/2 lb of each, or even less (say 1/4 lb of carapils). The extract will give you plenty of body even with no crystal. It'll be too sweet like you have it.

    Hops wise I'd add more late hops, certainly some at flameout, maybe an ounce or two more, and another ounce of dry hops too.
     
  7. And don't forget that light DMEs are normally ~5% carapils
     
    warchez likes this.
  8. I am not sure what the ‘intent’ of the 1.0 lbs Pale Malt (2-row) is. Do you intend to conduct a mini-mash? If so, 1 lb. of Pale Malt will not make much of an impact.

    I would recommend that your ‘grain bill’ be just Briess Pilsen DME (7.5 lbs.) and 20L Crystal (1 lb.).

    I would highly recommend that you utilize a single packet of US-05. If you decide to utilize liquid yeast (either Wyeast or White Labs) you really should make a starter for a beer of this gravity (Original Gravity > 1.060). The Wyeast smack-pack package has the nice ‘feature’ of proofing the yeast (to ensure that the yeast is viable). The act of smacking a pack is not the equivalent of a starter since very little yeast growth occurs when the pack swells.

    The hopping schedule looks OK. You might want to add a flame-out addition.

    Good luck with your IPA!

    Cheers!
     
    GreenKrusty101 and kjyost like this.
  9. cmmcdonn

    cmmcdonn Savant (365) Virginia Jun 21, 2009


    The pale is probably there to convert the carapils starches.
     
  10. Good point.

    FWIW, Briess states that their carapils can be steeped vs. mashed:

    Carapils® Malt is devoid of enzymes and can be steeped in hot water or mashed.”

    My recommendation to the OP is to nix both the Pale Malt and the Carapils. I think the beer will taste the same and you eliminate one extra step (which I think is not needed).

    Cheers!
     
  11. Did not know this--thanks for digging that up! My earlier post about a partial mash was based on the assumption that the 2-row was there for carapils conversion. Having read this, I agree with your recommendation. Drop the carapils and 2-row. I might suggest less than a pound of crystal, but at that point it's personal preference.
     
  12. LAWbrewing

    LAWbrewing Zealot (80) Wisconsin Nov 23, 2010

    You guys are great! Thanks A TON for the feedback. I have a few brews under my belt, but my last one was a couple of years ago so I've forgotten much. BUT, I have fortunately not forgotten how useful the folks on BA are.

    OK, so I am nixing the carapils and 2-row. I'll drop the crystal to .5lbs and add .5lbs of DME to make up for the lost gravity. From what I recall, table sugar can be used to dry out a beer, but I've also heard that this not super reliable or perhaps doesn't go as far as some expect. True? What am I forgetting/missing about this? How much sugar will help to dry out the brew? I like a bit of dryness, but nothing pronounced. I just want to avoid that lingering syrupy-ness on the tongue, especially after a couple of bottles. I'm inclined to just skip it, but if someone has an opinion, I'm all ears.

    As for the hops, one is hard-pressed to get me to disagree with "add more hops." I'll definitely add an ounce of aroma hops at flameout then crank up the dry hops by 1.5oz to hit a total of 3oz of dry hop. Should these extra ounces come mainly from aroma? Bittering? Both?

    And, yes, I was thinking about using US-05, not the WLP001. White Labs has the vials, right? My mistake. So... if I do go with the dry yeast, is the suggestion to forget about the starter?

    Thanks again.
     
  13. Definitely ditch the starter with dry yeast. One pack should be enough for a beer like this, and if you need more I think the going wisdom is to pitch more dry. From what I understand, starters can actually be detrimental to dry yeast.

    I know there is a big debate on rehydration and it's not worth getting into it, but I would suggest it.
     
  14. OK, so I am nixing the carapils and 2-row. I'll drop the crystal to .5lbs and add .5lbs of DME to make up for the lost gravity. From what I recall, table sugar can be used to dry out a beer, but I've also heard that this not super reliable or perhaps doesn't go as far as some expect. True? What am I forgetting/missing about this? How much sugar will help to dry out the brew? I like a bit of dryness, but nothing pronounced. I just want to avoid that lingering syrupy-ness on the tongue, especially after a couple of bottles. I'm inclined to just skip it, but if someone has an opinion, I'm all ears.

    It's not that sugar drys out a beer, but replacing malt with sugar drys it out. I usually just mash a bit lower, but since you can't do that you could consider replacing .5# of DME with the equivalent in sugar. I don't think your beer will be syrupy the way you have it now though.
     
  15. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Champion (800) Texas May 21, 2010

    with only half pound of crystal I don't think you need to bother with table sugar. If you do, don't use a lot, use 4-8 oz tops.

    If you only have the hops you listed on the OP and can't get any more...

    ...Use the colombus at 60/FWH and move the centennial to FO.

    But if you can get more hops, then add more at FO and dry.

    BTW the presence of that 2-row doesn't make a big difference, and I would ditch it. If you start doing mini-mash or partial mash, then you would need it.

    Good luck man!
     
  16. If you utilize Briess Pilsen DME as your ‘base malt’ and ferment with US-05 I would strongly recommend that you don’t utilize sugar. Briess Pilsen DME is a very fermentable malt extract and US-05 is an attenuative yeast. Very simply, sugar will not be needed to ‘dry out’ this beer.

    Cheer!
     
    AlCaponeJunior likes this.
  17. that extract probably already has a good amount of carapils or cara-whatever in it, so you could probably nix that in your specialty grains...
     
  18. LAWbrewing

    LAWbrewing Zealot (80) Wisconsin Nov 23, 2010

    Interesting that starters can affect dry yeast. If, however, I choose to go with the ol' realiable WY1056 (or WLP001), should I make a starter? If so, how big?

    Also, if pitching directly on the cake of this beer for that DIPA I mentioned is a bad idea, which it definitely seems to be, the way to utilize the cake would have to be washing, yes? If so, does anyone know of a particularly useful thread that discusses yeast washing? [I have reference books, incl. Palmer's, but just in case there was another gem out there on these here internets...]
     
  19. should I make a starter? Yes!

    If so, how big? A 1.5 quart starter (with intermittent shaking) will be sufficient.

    Read this thread: http://beeradvocate.com/community/t...atch-of-dogfish-60-min-ipa.64487/#post-892325

    Cheers!
     
  20. I think a 1 liter starter would be fine for this beer, Mr. Malty says 3 liter starter, but I think that is overkill.

    Here's a good resource for yeast washing: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/

    One thing you should think about is this beer is already borderline for reusing yeast. You could definitely get away with it, but a good rule of thumb is anything over 1.060 and the yeast start to get a little stressed.
     
  21. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (415) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    I can't find in this thread where that was stated. Pitching a high gravity DIPA onto a yeast cake in this situation would be perfectly fine.

    What method can you use to make a starter? Stirplate?

    You don't have to make a starter. You could pitch 2-3 vials of yeast, depending on the age of the vials. This may help. http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast-tools.php
     
  22. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (415) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    Good point. In addition, hop oils in the fermenting wort also has a negative impact on the yeast.
     
  23. Good point. Plus I would expect more hop matter to end up in the wort, which could affect the next beer (although I wouldn't be worried about an IIPA).
     
  24. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (775) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009

    I'd make a starter. How big depends on the target gravity and volume of your wort (which you already know), and the freshness of your vial of yeast, which you won't know until you get it. Once you do, I recommend this calculator, specifying 'Intermittent Shaking' if you don't have a stirplate...

    http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
     
  25. LAWbrewing

    LAWbrewing Zealot (80) Wisconsin Nov 23, 2010

    It was in the first response:

    Seems like over the last couple of posts, scurvy311 and ericj551 were discussing similar ideas. So, what's the verdict? If I rack off the IPA into secondary can I pitch IIPA on the cake? Or, should I wash? Or, should I just start from scratch with a big starter that can devour the DIPA?

    Sadly, no stir plate so it'll be shakey-shakey.
     
  26. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (415) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    If this is what you are referring to, this is incorrect.

    JackHorzempa stated correctly later...

     
  27. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (395) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    For hop-froward beers you want to pitch yeast into the clearest wort that you can. The reason that you lose hop utilization for high gravity beers in the kettle is a HG wort has more hot break. The oils stick to it. As you chill there will also be more cold break which will strip out oils.

    My comment about new brewers is that I'm making the assumption that they don't whirlpool and (if not using a plate chiller) take the time for the trub to settle out before transfer into the fermentor.

    Worst case scenario is the you'll have two beer runs worth of junk and even with the best effort there would have to be trub in the yeast cake. Just my $.02 but I'd never use a yeast cake for a hoppy-beer.

    FWIW my 5000ML vessel broke and I've twice used a one gallon distilled plastic jug to make a starter. The only warning is the tops don't have many threads. About a third of a turn and it's off. So I put tin foil over the top and twist it as one unit. The tin foil holds it in place.

    To reiterate what others have said: With dry yeast it's advised not to make starters as they are not needed. The cells were dried at the peak of health and don't need to be buffed up. Re-hydration is highly debated and also recommend. It's said that if you pitch dry half the cells will die.
     
  28. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (415) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    Good point. Not having to buy fresh yeast is not worth the risk.
     
  29. LAWbrewing

    LAWbrewing Zealot (80) Wisconsin Nov 23, 2010

    FWIW, this is the recipe as it currently stands. Also, I do not have a spigot on my brewpot. I use an immersion chiller I made along with a pre-chiller and can get 5gal of wort down to 65 degrees in 15min or less with this set up. Trub has plagued me since I have to (or, have been anyway) dumping from brew pot to fermenter. I tell myself it's good for aeration and just cry over the beer left behind in all that muck on bottling day.



    OG: 1.066 FG: 1.015 ABV: 6.8%
    Color: 5.9 SRM 63 IBUs

    Grain Bill
    7.5lbs Extra Light DME
    0.5lbs Crystal Malt – 20L

    Hop Schedule
    0.5oz Columbus (FWH)
    1.0oz Centennial (60min)
    1.0oz Cascade (15min)
    1.0oz Glacier (5min)
    1.0oz Glacier (FO)
    1.0oz Pacifica (FO)
    2.0oz Cascade (Dry hop – 10 days)
    1oz Columbus (Dry hop – 7 days)

    Yeast
    White Labs California Ale – WLP001 (2.71L starter or 2.4 vials), or
    Wyeast 1056 (2.71L starter or 2.4 smackpacks), or
    Fermentis US-05 (13g, total needed)
     
  30. Btw how are you calculating OG and FG (og in particular)? I think both the updated and original values are low
     
  31. Why don't you whirlpool the trub to the centre of the kettle then siphon from the side? If you want aeration, keep the hose well above the wort level in the fermenter and it will splash (not that aeration is all that necessary for dry yeast).
     
  32. I don't have a problem with pitching a IIPA on a whole cake from a previous beer, but it would be much better if that previous beer was about 1.040 (not 1.066) ...AND you do it about a week after brewing the first beer...but don't forget the blowoff tube!
     
  33. pweis909

    pweis909 Advocate (715) Wisconsin Aug 13, 2005

    kjyost has the right idea. Whirlpool and cool, then siphon off the trub rather than dump your pot. There's muck in there at somepoint or other, you need to separate it from your beer. You can do it after the boil, or give the beer lots of contact time with the trub in the fermenter. It's likely that the trub has some nutrition for yeast, but it risks contributing unwanted flavor. Plan for 6 gallons at the end of the boil, but transfer 5-5.5 by raising the bottom of your siphon an inch or so from the bottom.

    Another approach that certainly isn't perfect but is better than dumping the whole kettle into the fermenter is to position a large sieve over the kettle and pour through it so that the wort is strained. But be careful not to bump the sieve while pouring, which could dump all that trub and the sieve into the wort. Happened to me and then I decided to start siphoning.

    Of course everything needs to be sanitized, whether you sieve or siphon.
     
  34. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (775) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009

    You won't need a starter that big for this beer unless you have some pretty old yeast. If you used the Mr. Malty calculator, did you select "Intermittent Shaking?" Don't select "Simple Starter" unless you really can't be bothered to swirl the flask now and then.
     
  35. To follow up with numbers and calcs for the OG question,

    DME= 45 points/pound /gallon
    20L crystal= 22 points /pound/gallon

    45*7.5=337.5
    22*0.5=11

    Total = 348.5

    Assuming your target vol is 5 gal, 348.5/5=69.7 (or 1.0697 as we typically write it). So the og for the updated recipe is definitely in starter territory; just make sure you use the right OG for the pitching rate calcs.
     
  36. And just for posterity, for the original recipe:

    DME: 45ppg x 7 = 315
    crystal: 22 ppg x 1.5 = 33
    carapils: 32 ppg x 1 = 32
    2 row: 37 ppg x 1 = 37
    **(I should note that the 2 row and carapils number may not actually be that high since you were just talking about steeping)

    Total=417

    For 5 gallons, 417/5=83.4 or 1.083.

    Numbers from here
    http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html
     
  37. LAWbrewing

    LAWbrewing Zealot (80) Wisconsin Nov 23, 2010

    Thanks for the catch. I did not see that drop down menu when I made the original entry. It now tells me 1.54 L of starter.

    Um... I don't do that because... um... I... EUREKA! I do this now.

    I once tried a screen in the funnel, different from this of course, but it proved to be horrendously irritating.

    So I'll pull the chiller and brew spoon my way to a nice whirlpool. Let it sit for 5-10min(?) then siphon down the side and up little from the bottom of the kettle. This must be what rocket scientists feel like.
     
    kjyost likes this.
  38. LAWbrewing

    LAWbrewing Zealot (80) Wisconsin Nov 23, 2010

    Hm. My original calculations came from BeerSmith2. Do you all find that program to generally submit low or otherwise imprecise numbers??
     
  39. Looking at the page below (I don't have beersmith), I think it will really depend on what number they're using for ppg for steeped crystal 20L. The numbers are in the ballpark of one another, so that's probably the disconnect. They apparently use 44ppg for dme instead of 45 like I did, which brings the fg to 1.0682 vs 1.0697.

    http://www.beersmith.com/Grains/Grains/GrainList.htm

    Edit: someone could also check my math
     
  40. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Champion (800) Texas May 21, 2010

    I have beersmith on two computers and it doesn't give the exact same results on both computers*, but it's pretty darn close. Homebrewing isn't that exact a science anyway. If it's close enough, it's probably good enough.

    still can't quite figure out what's different on the parameters! :rolleyes:
     

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