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Macro cravings...?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Alextricity, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. Are you sure it's all-malt?

    Keith Villa, in interviews about Batch 19, has discussed the use of rice and it's percentage in pre-Pro Coors recipes found in their archive upon which he based the beer - certainly implying that it is an adjunct CAP:

    “The beer was heavier then, and had less rice, about 20%. When Prohibition was repealed, it went up to 33%. It’s got a lot of hop character, a good lager character, and it’s a bright, clear beer. It’s a real nice lager, a pre-Prohibition lager.” --- Fresh Tastes of Summer Brews, Lew Bryson
     
    Bitterbill likes this.
  2. CellarGimp

    CellarGimp Savant (475) Missouri Sep 14, 2011

    Crave? Never. Ever. Drink? Rare occasions.
     
  3. Brunite

    Brunite Savant (430) Illinois Sep 21, 2009

    Don't you mean "hangover" ?

    Intoxication should only require 3-4 RIS to do the trick, no?
     
  4. Beerista

    Beerista Zealot (95) Massachusetts Sep 11, 2012

    I really want to try the new Budweiser. Only question - can I get it in my neighborhood?
     
  5. DelMontiac

    DelMontiac Advocate (630) Oklahoma Oct 22, 2010

    I don't have macro cravings, but in a pinch I'll opt for a Coors Banquet. I'll have a Dos Equis in a Mexican restaurant so that I may "stay thirsty, my friend."
     
  6. Bitterbill

    Bitterbill Poobah (1,135) Wyoming Sep 14, 2002

    Re the hop character, I like, what I find to my palate, the spiciness of the hops. It lures me in every time I'm at the pub that serves it on draught.
     
  7. In this interview with Lew Bryson, Keith Villa (the brewer of Batch 19) solely discussed malt (there was no mention of adjuncts):

    “They didn’t measure the color of the beer back then, but I guess that it was a nice golden color. They used pale malt. If it wasn’t dark enough, they’d add a touch of caramel malt to darken it up a bit. I used the Moravian malt that we have, the Coors strain. We have a barley breeding program up in Idaho; they improve it every year. Then I put just a tiny bit of European cara-malt. It maintains the color of the beer, and adds a slightly more complex character to the beer. It’s fermented with the classic Coors yeast.”

    You can read the entire article /interview here: http://lewbryson.blogspot.com/2011/07/okay-but-its-still-dumbest-looking.html

    I have only had Batch 19 once (on draft) and that beer is an amber color; I homebrew my own CAP beers from the ‘traditional’ ingredients of 6-row malt and some flaked maize (20% of the grist). My CAP beer is much lighter in color than Batch 19 and the flavor of my CAP (from a grain perspective) is significantly different from Batch 19. Below is a sensory description of Batch 19 that I found via a web search; I agree with this description 100%:

    “Batch 19 doesn’t exactly taste like a CAP. You can really taste some malt complexity. In addition to what Dahoov stated, (caramel/melanoidin character), I can taste a toasted character.”

    From my perspective, Batch 19 tastes like an Amber Lager. It is on the level of beers such as Brooklyn Lager, Sam Adams Boston Lager, etc.

    Cheers!
     
  8. I split a case of corona ponys with my friend on cinco de mayo but besides that, no.
     
  9. I enjoy a Yuengling every now and then.
     
    Squidly likes this.
  10. MagillaGriller

    MagillaGriller Savant (315) Aug 20, 2012

    Sometimes I would like company to crave the "lawn mower" beers in my fridge and keep their filthy paws off of my crafts.
     
    keithmurray likes this.
  11. From that same interview http://lewbryson.blogspot.com/2011/07/okay-but-its-still-dumbest-looking.html (which seems to be based on the same interview)

     
  12. abecall98

    abecall98 Advocate (540) California Aug 11, 2007

    Nah, I have never craved one to the point where I drive out and buy one. But, if I am chillin at home, and the only beer in the fridge is leftover Coors Light from poker night, I will drink it just because I feel like having a beer. I have a few Coors Lights in my mini fridge in my room that are about year old now. I have had other beers cold when I felt like a beer, so they keep getting passed up lately.
     
  13. Agreed. I don't think I'd ever buy it on my own, but sharing a Molson with my dad whenever I see him is super important to me.
     
    Squidly likes this.
  14. I agree that the logbook indicated the use of adjunct.

    I have never seen Keith Villa mention the use of adjuncts in any of the written (or video) interviews that he made concerning the brewing of Batch 19. In fact he solely made specific mention of using malts (Moravian base malt and Cara-Malt) in the Lew Bryson interview.

    So, my point is that Batch 19 (as it is brewed today) is an all malt beer. Batch 19 was brewed ‘based’ upon the logbook but as Keith mentioned in a separate interview the only thing that is a constant between what Coors brewed before prohibition and Batch 19 is the water:

    “The malts, the hops and the yeast have all changed. Literally, nothing was the same as it was back then…the only constant was the water because they brewed it right there at the same site in Golden, Colorado.”

    Cheers!
     
  15. fatboy91

    fatboy91 Aficionado (215) Illinois Apr 26, 2012

    There's nothing like a bucket of ice cold Labatt Blues waiting for you in the locker room after busting your ass on the ice for an hour.

    I'll actually be partaking in this ritual tonight.
     
    ZAP likes this.
  16. jRocco2021

    jRocco2021 Savant (395) Wisconsin Mar 13, 2010

    Baltika #9 I don't know if it's technically BMC. I do know it's cheap, it's strong, and it's good. Oh yeah and screw you guys and your 40's! Real men drink 51's.
     
  17. Crusader

    Crusader Savant (345) Sweden Feb 4, 2011

    I found this article from the Washington Post which discusses Batch 19 and makes references to quotes made by Villa, but it doesn't say where the referenced quotes come from.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/all-we-can-eat/beer/beer-batch-19s-in-town.html

     
  18. Pretty funny, then.

    Sooo... "Batch 19" is the exact same recipe as a beer Coors brewed before Prohibition.

    Well, except for using a different strain of barley, different hops and...oh, yeah, a different adjunct. Otherwise - same stuff. :eek:

    I guess it's par for the course for a macro brewery.
     
    robinsmv and Crusader like this.
  19. Crusader

    Crusader Savant (345) Sweden Feb 4, 2011

    I guess it's up there with Schlitz's 1960s formula in terms of historical accuracy. Some more body from some more barley malt and some more IBUs and you got yourself an authentic, historical recipe. It's especially strange since Villa appears to be fully aware of the earlier use of rice at Coors yet also mentions its modern use of corn in both the standard brands and Batch 19, the latter of which he attempts to sell as an interpretation of an authentic pre-1919 Coors recipe. Even if one takes into account his admission of there being changes in types of ingredients used, it gets bizzarre when not even the adjunct is the same, even though this is the one ingredient that could be easily matched.

    One can only guess as to what would cause such a discrepancy, or verbal (and cognitive?) dissonance.
     
  20. goodonezach

    goodonezach Initiate (0) New York Mar 24, 2011

    i'd prefer a pbr or a gansett to something really heady every now and then but i also have a hard time bringing myself to support the big guys. as a matter of principle, i'll refuse to drink big corporate brands if there's nothing else around.
     
  21. Crusader

    Crusader Savant (345) Sweden Feb 4, 2011

    The one explanation I can think of would be that Coors has always used both corn and rice in their recipes, and that it's merely the ratios that have changed. Whereas the adjunct was primarily rice in the early 1900s, corn has become the dominant adjunct today (or perhaps even the only adjunct). So early marketing references to Coors' use of rice in their beer might not have been incompatible with a factual use of corn in some form or another in those days, they merely promoted the use of rice more than they did their use of corn due to the percieved artificialness of corn-derived glucose. That's one theory I guess.
     
  22. InebriatedJoker

    InebriatedJoker Champion (810) Ohio Sep 16, 2010

    not really , But I will boil my brats in them before putting them on the grill .
     
  23. Winston_Smith

    Winston_Smith Initiate (0) Kentucky Oct 25, 2012

    Yuengling lager is good any time. My favorite lager, bar none. I also crave the shit out of PBR sometimes.
     
  24. GRbruR

    GRbruR Aficionado (150) Utah Jan 5, 2008

    I think as beer geeks, we can all admit to occasional fits of beer nostaglia. I didn't start drinking saisons, tripels, or IPAs, I started with Old Style and Lowenbrau back in Grand Rapids. Only when I yearn for the days of summer drinking while pitching horse shoes or a cooler full of beer on the beach do I reach for such a style now. Rare, but it happens. I like to feel 18 again, and if it means I buy the product of a macro-brewer, so be it. The other 99% of the time, I support the lil' guys.
     
  25. Yeah, I've always joked that when a US "macro" brewery claims to have used the same recipe "Since 18__", the official recipe looks something like this:

    • Water
    • Yeast
    • Malted Barley - as needed
    • an adjunct of corn (grits, flakes, syrup), rice or a combination of them- in whatever proportion desired
    • some sort of hops. Quantity - "to taste"
    Coors Banquet used to be the other notable US adjunct lager that used rice as an adjunct - up until somewhere in the 1980's-1990's (wasn't really paying attention). For a time they supplemented that with refined corn starch.
    Now they'll often just say "other grains" (which used to imply "whatever is cheapest in the ag market at the time" in the industry) or some other vague phrase in promotional material.
     
    Crusader likes this.
  26. Eastside151

    Eastside151 Savant (450) Ohio Jun 29, 2012

    Do I crave them? no, but in a pinch on a hot day I will grab an Aquafina. Same great flavor as the macros and you can even drive with an open bottle!
     
    JrGtr likes this.
  27. ice cold genny 12 horse in the retro bottles...very very cold of course
     
  28. ifnkovhg

    ifnkovhg Savant (260) California Aug 12, 2008

    I crave adjunct beer like I crave gonorrhea.
     
    meanmutt likes this.
  29. fauxpunker

    fauxpunker Aficionado (165) Nov 23, 2012

    Despite my general distaste for all things hipster, I will happily consume PBR when available. Especially when in a dive, skinning a deer, or going for mass quantity drinking.
     
  30. Part 1:

    Well, thanks to Crusader for finding another article concerning Batch 19 (the Washington Post article).

    When Batch 19 first came out a few years ago, Keith Villa conducted an advertising tour to promote the beer. They first test marketed the beer in 5 cities (Chicago, Milwaukee, San Francisco, Washington D.C., and San Jose). I watched a couple of TV show interviews (local morning news shows) where Keith Villa was interviewed by the TV show hosts (plus he provided samples of the beer). The big shtick was the old logbook; he brought it with him to the interviews and would open it up to show the recipes. He would discuss the ingredients used to make Batch 19 but not once made mention of adjuncts (whether it be rice or corn). He would mention the Colorado spring water, malt, yeast and hops. He would then discuss the two hops of Hersbrucker and Strisslespalt but made no mention of the other hops utilized. I have links to two video interviews that were hosted on youtube but they are no longer active.

    So, why does Keith Villa not discuss the use of adjuncts in these video interviews (plus a number of other written interviews)? My guess is that he does this for a ‘poor’ marketing reason. Why do I say ‘poor’? Well, because today (2012) the use of adjuncts is looked down upon by craft beer drinkers. In the US before Prohibition there was no prejudice concerning the use of adjuncts. From my perspective Keith Villa could have used the brewing and marketing of Batch 19 to educate beer drinkers. The problem with adjuncts in modern day American Adjunct Lagers is not so much that adjuncts are used but how they are used. Modern day AAL beers use too much adjunct (something like 40+ % of the grain bill). Also, the type of adjunct used can influence the flavors of the beer. Rice contributes very little flavor but corn (if used properly) can provide a subtle but pleasant sweet graininess flavor. So, if you brew a CAP with 80% 6-row barley (the traditional barley used in US breweries before Prohibition and after Prohibition) and 20% corn you get tasty beer (plus generous use of hops).

    I used to have a high opinion of Keith Villa (and Coors) for producing and marketing Batch 19 but now I am re-thinking my opinion. Let’s discuss the ingredient selection of Batch 19:

    Grain Selection

    As regards malted barley, the logbook mentioned Chevalier” malt which is no longer grown. So, Keith had to make a selection of malted barley from what is available today. The logical choice, from a historical perspective, would be American 6-row barley. So, what did Keith choose: “I used the Moravian malt that we have, the Coors strain. We have a barley breeding program up in Idaho; they improve it every year. Then I put just a tiny bit of European cara-malt.” WTF!?! Why would he select a Moravian malt (which is grown in Idaho no less) and a crystal malt (cara-malt)!?! This makes no sense!

    As regards the use of adjuncts, did he use them or didn’t he use them? He doesn’t mention this whatsoever in his interview with Lew Bryson (I have met and spoken with Lew Bryson; he is an extremely knowledgeable beer guy/writer). It appears that corn grits were used via the Washington Post interview. Now, if I was going to be pedantic I would ‘complain’ that he didn’t brew per the logbook (which apparently listed rice) but I am of the opinion that corn is a superior adjunct if utilized properly. I have no idea how the corn was used in Batch 19; I personally cannot perceive any sweet graininess in the beer.

    Hop Selection

    Apparently the logbook listed just Domestic and Imported hops. The Domestic hops of that day were Cluster hops. Why were no Cluster hops used in making Batch 19? The aforementioned hops of Hersbrucker and Strisslespalt are indeed imported (European Hops). I very much doubt that Strisslespalt was imported to the US prior to Prohibition. The commonly mentioned imported hops of that era from the book 100 Years of Brewing: “imported hops the best of the latter being Bohemian Saazer,” then Bavarian “Spalter,” and then “Holleetan” (Hallertauer?). Other hops that were imported include English Fuggles and Styrian Goldings, which are Fuggles grown in Yugoslavia.” So, Saaz and Hallertauer would seem to be more appropriate hops for authenticity reasons. In another interview Keith mentioned: ”I stuck in a little bit of Cascade to round out the fruitiness. There’s a little Mt. Hood, and some Hallertauer Select.” Why would you utilize Cascade hops (even in small quantities) in a Pre-Prohibition Lager!?! Cascade was only released in 1972 and it has a strong citrus taste which is totally inappropriate for a historical lager.
     
    benjaminahudson and Crusader like this.
  31. Part 2:

    Yeast

    Keith is using the present day Coors lager strain. It is basically impossible to obtain the Coors lager strain of 1919 so this is the best he could do.

    Water

    Assuming that the chemical analysis of the local spring water is the same today as it was in 1919 then at least this ingredient is historically correct.

    As I have mentioned in a number of previous posts, Batch 19 is not a bad beer. It just isn’t a good representation of a Classic American Pilsner. In my humble opinion, Batch 19 is a modern day American Amber Lager:

    · It has an amber color; darker than what would result from a beer made from the traditional grist of 80% 6-row malt and 20% corn (or rice). I think the amber color is the result of the use of crystal (cara-malt) specialty malt. In my opinion, crystal malt should not be used in the making of a Classic American Pilsner.
    · Its dominant malt taste is a sweet caramel taste. I believe this taste is due to the use of crystal malt. I am guessing that perhaps this crystal malt taste is masking the sweet graininess that the corn could provide (presuming that corn was used)?
    · The beer is hopped at a level comparable to modern day American Amber Lagers. It is written that American Pilsners were more generously hopped in the timeframe before Prohibition. The event of Prohibition was instrumental to the ‘watering down’ from a taste perspective of American Pilsners. Pilsners made after Prohibition utilized less hops (less hop flavor/aroma) and more adjuncts (which lighten the beer in color and flavor). For example the statement of: “The early logbook, right before Prohibition, the beer was heavier, and had less adjunct, about 20%. When Prohibition was repealed, it went up to 33%. It was rice at the time.”

    If Coors (and Keith Villa) genuinely wanted to make a beer like we had in America before Prohibition there was lots of information available to them besides the logbook (which had some missing details like specific hop names, specific hopping amounts from bittering level perspective, etc.).

    Very simply:

    · Use 80% 6-row malt and 20% corn for your grain bill. Do not use crystal malt!!
    · For Domestic hops use Cluster (for bittering) and either Hallertauer or Saaz for the imported hops (for flavor and aroma). And importantly use lots of those hops for a discernible hop bitterness, flavor and aroma.
    · Using present day Coors lager yeast and present day Coors spring water is just fine.

    Cheers!
     
    Crusader likes this.
  32. Corona Extra with a lime slice was actually the reason I started branching out and trying new beers. Before that it was all High Life and Bud Light or college keg beer. I actually enjoyed the taste of Corona (because of the like) and then precoeeded to start trying any beer I could find. 6 years later I'm a "beer sno" but there will never be a substitute for Corona and lime.
     
  33. Crusader

    Crusader Savant (345) Sweden Feb 4, 2011

    I agree with the points you are making in your post, but to be fair to Coors the only style indication it gives in the marketing is the term lager, combined with the vague prefix of "pre-prohibition style" (of which there would have been several). A lager it is, but is it authentic to beers, a beer, brewed by coors at the time? That's the question. Or should it be considered an amalgamation of beer styles brewed back then complete with some modern twists?

    In my opinion, even with the caveats that the marketing for Batch 19 utilizes about it being an interpretation and using a flexible term such as pre-prohibition style lager to describe it, it still seems as though the beer is meant to be considered as authentic by the consumer. This is the allure of the beer after all, its historic roots, giving consumers a chance to try an American style of beer from the pre-prohibition days. If the product they sell as authentic is rather a hobbled together mix of styles and ingredients then it just seems like a disservice to the consumer and reflects poorly on the company that makes the product. Fabricating history in a sense, beer history in this case.

    True, water, barleymalt, adjuncts (or no adjuncts), hops and yeast have all been used to make beer, nowadays just as in the early 1900s and backwards in history, but the way that these ingredients have been combined and utilized is what is interesting from an historical point of view. If historical uses of these ingredients can be deconstructed and put together in new ways and yet still be called historical, authentic examples of beers or beer styles, then Coors already has plenty of brands to promote in this way and Batch 19 fills little to no purpose beyond marketing gimmickry (apart from being a tasty beer of course, as seems to be the consensus). Coors Banquet might as well have been sold in the same way, although perhaps not as effectively.

    Attention to detail and adherence to the original are factors which I think are important when beers and beer makers make claims of historical authenticity. I would greatly encourage such an endevour which would allow me as a modern consumer to try a beer which in great detail ressembles a beer of the early 20th century or beyond. Such a beer needs to go the extra mile in my opinion in ensuring this, otherwise I'm left just as puzzled as I was originally (or worse, ignorant) as to how the beer I'm drinking relates to the beers of the past, preventing me from learning anything and leaving me with little to take away from the experience.
     
  34. Yuengling had few this past Saturday night theres a time and place for everything, just hanging with friends didnt really want to buy anything too expense.
     
  35. Sure there was. Check out this response (in The New York Times, no less) by the area brewers over accusations of using adjuncts (and other additives) in 1881 - How Lager Beer is Made Page down and find a link to the famous 1902 Pure Food Hearings (many brewers interviewed) and, from it, Adolphus Busch's partial testimony before Congress. Further down, some articles from 1890 about an attempt to pass what would have essentially been a US Reinheitsgebot - where any lager beer not all-malt would have had to be labeled "Adulterated".

    For more examples, check out this series of Letters to the Editor to the NY Sun, complaining/defending US brewers' use of adjuncts and other substances in 1908. American Beer 1908
     
  36. “Attention to detail and adherence to the original are factors which I think are important when beers and beer makers make claims of historical authenticity. I would greatly encourage such an endevour which would allow me as a modern consumer to try a beer which in great detail ressembles a beer of the early 20th century or beyond. Such a beer needs to go the extra mile in my opinion in ensuring this, otherwise I'm left just as puzzled as I was originally (or worse, ignorant) as to how the beer I'm drinking relates to the beers of the past, preventing me from learning anything and leaving me with little to take away from the experience.” Amen!

    I really wish that the video interviews that Keith Villa conducted on the early morning news shows (my memory is that one was conducted in Chicago and the other in Milwaukee) were still active on youtube. You could here for yourself how Keith Villa discussed the making of this beer and how he promoted it; these interviews occurred several years ago during the initial roll-out of the product (during the test marketing phase).

    I don’t begrudge Keith being a promoter but I do (now) object to him portraying Batch 19 as being an ‘authentic’ or ‘historical’ beer. Much of his promotion was the presentation of the old logbook and the strong intimation that they brewed per the recipe. I now know, based upon the Lew Bryson published interview and aspects of the Washington Post article, that the brewing of Batch 19 had a lot of artistic license; too much artistic license for my taste. There are a number of published articles and details in brewing history books (e.g., 100 years of brewing published in 1903) that could have provided Keith the additional details he needed to ‘fill in the blanks’ for the missing aspects of the old logbook. Even if he didn’t want to do a lot of research he could simply have read Jeff Renner’s article that was published in Zymurgy magazine if Sept./Oct. 2000; available for a free download at the AHA website: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/free-downloads

    Hopefully someday a US brewery will make a ‘real’ Classic American Pilsner. There is a part of me that would prefer that that brewery would be a regional brewery (e.g., High Falls (formerly Genesee), Matt, August Schell, etc.). vs. one of the BMC type breweries. In my perfect world either Yuengling or Spoetzl breweries would be perfect candidates to make ‘real’ Classic American Pilsners but I recognize that they wouldn’t do this since it would compete with their ‘fake’ Traditional type lagers (Yuengling Traditional Lager and for Spoetzl: Shiner Blonde/Shiner Bock).

    Cheers!
     
    Crusader likes this.
  37. The ‘history I was familiar with was:

    “In 1899, in testimony before a Senate committee investigating adulteration of food products, a New York City brewmaster testified that he used only malt in 75 percent of his beers, but that he made another beer with the addition of corn grits. The committee chairman asked, "You have some customers that prefer that?" The brewer replied, "Well, I use it to meet competition. Some customers want a lighter beer because I can and do give it to them cheaper. The cost of production is less."
    Later he testified that all-malt beer was a superior product but the chill haze (i.e., enzymatic proteins in solution that appear as a haze or cloud when the beer is chilled) convinced some consumers otherwise. "The ordinary beer drinker or any person not conversant with the reason of that cloudiness may reject the beer for the reason that it does not look right; it does not appeal to the eye." The addition of corn to the mash provided more starch for the excess enzymes from the malt to work on and thus decreased the amount of proteins in the finished beer, solving the chill haze problem cheaply and effectively.”

    As you adroitly mentioned in your post: “complaining/defending US brewers' use of adjuncts…”

    So I am now educated that not all US beer consumers prior to Prohibition thought well of the use of adjuncts.

    Having said that, some (most?) US beer drinkers preferred drinking lagers that included the use of adjuncts. They resulted in clearer beers that were also satisfying to drink:

    “Cochran writes, "There were still some lovers of fine beer who preferred the old-style German product, and for these, several thousand barrels of pure malt beers, amounting to about a tenth of the total production, were brewed. The cost of materials for these brands due to the larger percentage of malt, and the use of more imported hops, ran as high as 80 to 100 percent more than for the standard product... Yet the great majority of Americans preferred this latter, cheaper type (lagers brewed with adjunct)."

    Cheers!
     
  38. If the menu choice is limited I have no problem grabbing a Killians Red from a local restaurant.
     
    craftabrew407 likes this.
  39. djaeon

    djaeon Advocate (735) California Oct 2, 2006

    Sometimes on a hot Summer day, a Corona sounds really good.
     
  40. Zhiguli

    Zhiguli Aficionado (245) California Jul 12, 2012

    no
     
    optimator705 and DerekP like this.

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