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Small Bottle "Aging" - My Mistake

Discussion in 'Cellaring / Aging Beer' started by GRG1313, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. GRG1313

    GRG1313 Champion (890) California Jan 15, 2009

    I am speaking for me...my experience; and, yes...I am aware that there are exceptions. I am aware that someone may say that a beer that I've found to be over the hill "was the best bottle of beer he/she ever had!" I get it. This is my opinion based on my experience.

    I did not intentionally "age" several of the small bottles that I tasted this afternoon. I have a deep cellar and I finally took 48 small bottles out to taste - bottles that I've just not gotten around to or simply were never opened as we opened larger bottles or rarer bottles at beer tastings.

    So, today I'm going through about 48 small bottles from about 2009 to 2011 and of all different styles and breweries. The only constant is that they are all small bottles - 12 oz.

    Basic conclusion: I have ruined a lot of beer! My mistake; my error; my bad. Almost all of these bottles, from the strong ales, to the wild ales, to the fruit ales to the barleywines, porters and stouts - all of them - have NOT improved. Almost all of them, candidly, are just over the hill and not "what they were." (And, note: All of these were in a 56 degree cellar for the past year to 3 years/4 years. They were stored at optimum condition, other than being in a refrigerator/cooler which, in my opinion and based on how they tasted, likely would not have helped most of them.)

    My conclusion, for myself, is that I'm going to try to keep a lower number of bottles in my cellar. My conclusion is also that I am not going to store/age small bottles at all! Large bottles, like wine, tend to oxidize and age slower (and I'm probably ruining a lot of those too). However, the smaller bottles, to a bottle, have just not stood up to any meaningful age whatsoever. Just about everything over a year old has not improved and does not taste as good as when fresh.

    Just my opinion; just my experience. I'm sure that I'll end up keeping small bottles for a while unintentionally just because I (like most of us) buy/obtain a lot of beer and I can't drink or taste it all. However, I'm going to strive to age only those bottles that I'm sure can take it or that I really want to watch change.

    I hope at least some of you benefit from my experience and mistake. Hey, if nothing else I'm re-cycling all the glass!
     
    cleeze, Siggy125 and kojevergas like this.
  2. Aging beer sucks unless it's a stout or barleywine. Anything with an extreme ABV that needs to "mellow"
     
  3. loafinaround

    loafinaround Savant (380) New York Jul 16, 2011

    I'm only aging one 4 pk of samiclaus.... obviously small bottles... basically because I've been told it's like battery fluid mixed with antifreeze when new. I do not have faith in my ability to properly cellar a beer or wine. no nice cool dark place in our home. hope it survives!
     
  4. Hockey_Fan

    Hockey_Fan Advocate (520) Maryland Jan 13, 2013

    I just found a case of beer leftover from a party I had about eight years ago.
     
    JxExM and robwestcott like this.
  5. ESeab

    ESeab Advocate (505) New Jersey Jan 3, 2013

    You know, I have just recently been buying to store/cellar and wondering if it's worth it. I am basically taking the stouts/barelywines only approach. Now when I see Narwhal, WnB, FBS, etc. still available I wonder, "should I get this and drink some and store the rest and see what happens later?" I guess the answer is yes since I'm sitting on over a case of various imperial stouts that I'd like to taste test against next years batch. Thanks for the info, I probably won't let anything go for over a year.
     
  6. brewbetter

    brewbetter Savant (410) Nauru Jun 2, 2012

    8-year-old macro ftw
     
  7. beerinmaine

    beerinmaine Aficionado (225) Maine Jun 20, 2009

    There are few absolutes in life, and this is one of them. I've had plenty of aged small bottles that were excellent - WWS, 120 min, Bigfoot, Brooklyn BCS come to mind right off.
     
  8.  
    AxesandAnchors and Douberd like this.
  9. Nectar

    Nectar Savant (310) New Jersey Jan 17, 2013

    How are you fairly able to judge that many beers?

    Also, I would probably guess thatits not the bottle format that caused the beers to depreciate..
     
  10. I agree that aging sometimes will just happen if you forget about stuff, but I think you have to know what you're aging...if you save a shitload of beers on the fringe like 8-9%ers(especially ones that aren't bottle conditioned) and you're expecting a miracle by aging, yea, you're probably going to be disappointed. I mean there are some beers I buy purposely to age because they are just way too brash to drink right off the bat(IMO), it's part of their design.

    I have some big abv stouts, barleywines and other bottle conditioned ales that I'm not worried about. They're set aside for aging on purpose because from what I know/have tasted, they age well.
     
  11. Hockey_Fan

    Hockey_Fan Advocate (520) Maryland Jan 13, 2013

    It's actually a case of Sam Adams winter sampler. The party was a holiday party.
     
  12. crossovert

    crossovert Champion (790) Illinois Mar 29, 2009

    Lol i think you wasted a bunch of money by opening that many at once.
     
    robwestcott, yamar68, mcrago and 2 others like this.
  13. ArrogantB

    ArrogantB Advocate (725) Colorado Jun 9, 2006

    1. Any 375's of gueuze?

    2. How do you know it was the bottle and not the beer? Most beers don't age well as we all know.
     
  14. BeerNDoggerel

    BeerNDoggerel Savant (340) Illinois Mar 13, 2011

    Related question about aging bottle-conditioned beers...

    Bought a bottle of Alesmith Horny Devil this week. The label directs not to refrigerate until immediately before consumption. Is this because refrigerating will damage/kill/slow down the yeast?
     
  15. drtth

    drtth Champion (870) Pennsylvania Nov 25, 2007

    Unless you did a blind tasting in a single session of beers where the only difference was bottle size and regularly found a deficit in the beers from the smaller bottle size *after* the container was revealed it is not possible to unambiguously blame the bottle size.

    Your reported results can just as easily be attirbuted to the psychologcal effects created by your feelings associated with not having kept track of your inventory and discovering all those bottles that you unintentionally aged.
     
    albertq17, kscaldef, pwoody11 and 2 others like this.
  16. jb123

    jb123 Advocate (510) Michigan Dec 3, 2012

    I've found that my local sours, like jolly pumpkin taste amazing with age...
     
  17. GRG1313

    GRG1313 Champion (890) California Jan 15, 2009

    A response to a few of the very good points made above:

    Many of us, myself included, frequent beer tastings, festivals, GABF and the like. It is not uncommon to taste dozens of beers. A trip to GABF will yield at least 75-150 tastings a day. It's possible. And, ones palate is not necessarily "wrecked" if one uses water, crackers, food etc and tastes in a reasonable order.

    It does not take a large quantity of beer to taste that a beer is over the hill, oxidized, bad, skunked, etc.

    Yes, I already mentioned in my post that there were exceptions;

    Yes, I wasted a lot of money. It was not in the opening the 48 bottles - it was in allowing them to get too old in the first place!

    Yes, I agree that it may not have been the bottle size; it may have been the beer itself. My experience with some of the same beers of the same age in larger bottles simply tasted better. I did have a means for comparison. However, the point made that it may not have been the size of the bottle is valid. My experience, at least with a few of the beers, showed that the size mattered. But, I admit that there are several other variables.

    No, I did not open any 375s of gueuze. (I find that those are generally just fine with a bit of age!)

    I don't think it was the psychological affect of "finding" the older small bottles. I have a very large cellar from which to draw and, believe it or not, I don't have an inventory. (That's another story - I have boxes and shelves labeled and I pretty much know what I have. I knew I had (and still have) bunches of small bottles - I just didn't realize I had so many older ones. Candidly, my expectations were much higher which is why I posted in the first place, truth be known. I was actually surprised. I expected many bottles to not be at their prime - I did not expect so many bottles to be "so" over the hill.

    I think all of the points made are worth consideration; I do not discount any of them. My post was simply my experience based on opening so many small bottles.

    I'm probably going to open another 20-30 today if I can find the time!
     
    ArrogantB and jmgrub like this.
  18. jbeezification

    jbeezification Savant (415) Texas Jun 6, 2012

    The size of the bottle literally has nothing to do with how well the beer inside of it ages.
     
  19. 3-4 years is too long for 95% of "ageable" beers out there. Doesnt matter with bottle size IMO
     
    Levitation, Patrick and Duff27 like this.
  20. Siggy125

    Siggy125 Advocate (505) California Nov 10, 2006

    So many beers come out and as collectors, we must have them all. Thus, the vast accumulation. I was just thinking about this the other day as I reacquainted myself with all that I had tucked away. When the hell am I gonna drink all this shit??? Must slow down to avoid the quagmire you describe. Yeah...right
     
  21. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If you're used to tasting large quantities of beer, then you are definitely more than qualified than me to judge multiples in a sitting.
    My ignorance on that part - I was thinking about my own palette (would be ruined after 10 for sure)

    Two more questions please:

    1. What was the percentage of the beer you're testing, is actually tasting OK? (2011 should still be fine on a good percentage, I would think)
    2. If you are finding any good beers, then what? Are you still drain pouring those, or are you stopping the test at that point to enjoy the beer (as it was intended)?

    As a collector, I would be foolish to act like this won't happen to me.
    I appreciate you posting this topic, as it has opened my eyes to look at my cellar closer to try to limit the possibility of this happening on a large scale - the way that it unfortunately got away from you.

    Thanks ~
     
  22. Perhaps post a list of some of the beers you determined were really bad? Some of them just may not have been the best choices to age.

    As a previous post suggests, the style of a beer and its ABV are things to consider when letting a bottle of any size age for any amount of time. For example, most people would probably agree that unless the beer is a sour (think Rodenbach), you should not let it sit for more than 6 months unless it is over 8% abv. Some styles, such as imperial IPA's, may have the ABV's in the 9-10% range, but you should not let them sit for more than a few months. Other styles, such as imperial stouts right at 8% (like Weyerbacher Heresy), I have enjoyed out of 12 oz bottles even after 5 years and it was incredible.
     
  23. Jeffo

    Jeffo Advocate (650) Netherlands Sep 7, 2008

    There are a few exceptions, but most beer doesn't age well. The majority of people who say they're buying beer to age are really trying to rationalize their collecting (ie: hoarding) problem.

    At some point in the future, there will be piles of lousy, past-its-prime beer lingering in BA "cellars." This is probably already starting to happen. A shame really.

    Jeff
     
  24. Duff27

    Duff27 Advocate (600) Illinois Feb 10, 2010

    Just two thoughts:

    1. Hopefully someday people will realize aging/cellaring doesn't not improve a beer damn nearly 95% or so of the time.

    2. Invite some friends over to open those bottles up. I know I would enjoy at least trying your bottles, especially if I knew you were just taking a sip of each and drainpouring.
     
  25. jb123

    jb123 Advocate (510) Michigan Dec 3, 2012

    Goose islands web site says directly you can cellar for up to five years.... Just saying
     
    mcrago likes this.
  26. AxesandAnchors

    AxesandAnchors Savant (300) Oregon Nov 21, 2012

    Refrigerator temperatures are too cold, the yeast will basically stop eating the sugars and go dormant. They won't die though because of the sealed bottle and the fact that there are still sugars to eat once you store the bottle at the proper temperature (this really depends on the yeast that was used, but should be around 54 degrees). However if the bottle experiences temperature fluctuation making it go in and out of being dormant several times I'm not sure what would happen to them, but I do know this is not good overal for your beer.
     
  27. AxesandAnchors

    AxesandAnchors Savant (300) Oregon Nov 21, 2012

    *Edit - If the bottle is stored for too long at refrigerator temperatures the yeast will not come back from being dormant, the time it takes for them to die is a bit fuzzy but the best thing you can do is store the bottle at the proper temperature as soon as you can...or just drink it ;-)
     
  28. I guess this is the inherent risk about putting certain beers away for extended periods of time. I keep an inventory list on Google Docs so that I can keep track of what I have in the cellar. I've tried plenty of beers of different styles that are in 12oz formats that didn't become gross with age. Third Coast Old Ale, Brooklyn BCS, the large DFH beers etc.
     
  29. powpig2002

    powpig2002 Savant (385) Florida Jan 26, 2012

    target practice
     
    Ish1 likes this.
  30. yamar68

    yamar68 Initiate (0) Minnesota Apr 1, 2011

    Why is this conversation happening?
     
  31. I think Genny Cream Ale peaks at 4 years.
     
  32. a brewery whose main goal it is to sell you more bottles makes an unsubstantiated statement that encourages its consumers to buy more bottles... ya don't say.

    /breaking news, cigarette companies find cigarettes add 3" to your penis
     
  33. lurchingbeast

    lurchingbeast Initiate (0) Illinois Feb 19, 2009

    The bottles merely say they will continue to develop up to 5 years. It makes no mention of improving.
     
    Treebs and Duff27 like this.
  34. I agree it would be nice if you could post some of your findings on beers that didn't improve because I believe many of us are in similar situations. I tend to only cellar things that are 8+% or so and nothing that is hop forward. Also on my part it's really not a concerted cellaring effort as much as its a lack of space in the fridge.
     
  35. *cough* *cough* Bullshit *cough* -- still 14 inches...Or are those centimeters? Damn, I need another 40 dog of Red Bull. Had that shit aging for like 2 weeks. Should be prime.
     
  36. Jwale73

    Jwale73 Advocate (715) Rhode Island Aug 15, 2007

    I don't have a deep cellar per se by any means, and am always curious about people's experiences in aging certain beers. Would you mind sharing the general styles you had put away? For my own part, I tend to cellar the tried and true (Chimay Blue, Old Stock, Cantillon Geueze, Bigfoot, Samiclaus), but am always curious about what will and won't hold up with time. Thanks for sharing your experience.
     
  37. yamar68

    yamar68 Initiate (0) Minnesota Apr 1, 2011

    Cigarette sales have since plummeted in the female market, as cigarette companies scramble to un-find these findings.
     
    Diotima likes this.
  38. Nectar

    Nectar Savant (310) New Jersey Jan 17, 2013

    So are you opening all of these, taking a taste, and then drain pouring it?
     
  39. GRG1313

    GRG1313 Champion (890) California Jan 15, 2009

    I'm happy to respond more fully as I go to pull bottles out of the recycle bin. But, please, this was NOT a case of my "aging." These were simply bottles that were not intentionally aged but had gone un-consumed for longer than anticipated.

    The stouts, for the most part, all became pretty boring, similiar and non-descript. The lighter styles, as would be expected, went to hell. The few sours I opened were actually decent. The several higher alcohol beers could still be considered drinkable and "good" but much of the character was gone. Almost all of the bottles 2011 and newer were fine, but for a few of the lighter styles that should have been consumed in the first 6 months. I'll try for some details as I pull bottles.

    Off the top of my head: Old Stock 2007, 2008, 2009 were still ok but not as intense as when newer and not a flavorful. Bigfoot and Samiclaus were also fine. 2008 Goose Island Stout was wonderful (see, there were some exceptions!) Nemesis 2009 was good. Older BMF bottlings (brewery from Switzerland about which we all don't talk about too much) from 2006, 2007, 2008 were awful/gone/not even carbonated and they were in swivel top bottles. All but one, Cuvee Alex Le Rouge, which was carbonated and pretty darn good. I was disappointed a great deal in the Avery Barrel Aged Series - most of the original first bottlings (1 through 8 or 9 that I tasted this round) were pretty disappointing and "old" before their time. However, the most recent, the last couple of bottlings were really good. There is no reason to comment on many of the IPA, doubles or even triples or quads that just were not meant to be aged - they were not meant to be aged for a reason. The stronger and higher abv DFH were very good, especially 120 and World Wide Stout.

    I did not taste any Chimay. Cantillon is in a different league. I drink older Cantillon pretty regularly and I have no problem with old Cantillon, 3 Fonteniens, etc!

    The bottles I opened and about which I'm speaking were not intended to be aged! These were bottles that just "escaped" drinking for whatever reason.

    I'm not dictating any rules here! I'm just giving my experience - I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. Just observing at this point.
     
  40. foobula

    foobula Savant (340) Illinois Dec 14, 2009

    It can be substantiated though. If you've had an 8 year old Bourbon County, it has very little of the barrel left vs. a 6 year old one. I didn't have 2003 when fresh, but am quite sure it must have had some barrel flavor to it, unlike the one I had a year ago.

    I'm in favor of keeping bottles around, because I'm not one who requires my beer to be in optimal condition. I would rather sit on a few bottles of 8% and up beer (not IPA's) that are becoming more rare by the month and try them a year or three later, maybe against the fresh version.

    Also people are doing verticals of Anchor Xmas that include 30+ year old 12 oz. bottles. I'm sure the beer is past its prime after that long but it doesn't mean it was a mistake to hang onto it for the experience.
     
    Justin_Neff and cindyjeffsmith like this.

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