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So, how's beer trading going?

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk & Help' started by Todd, Oct 29, 2012.

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  1. claaark13

    claaark13 Advocate (635) Indiana Nov 29, 2007

    1) That is no different than what happens now. Take a look at threads related to the trade value of GI Rare for reference.

    2) That is a ripoff if the person trading the KtG is a n00b and doesn't know the value of the bottle/cans. Taking advantage of n00bs isn't helping the community.

    If you're going to troll, at least try to do better than that.
    Etan likes this.
  2. Anonymous1

    Anonymous1 Savant (420) Illinois Mar 19, 2012

    1) I agree. People just use Trading General instead. I don't see how this is an argument to turn the comments back on as people will just do it in the ISO/FT again.

    2) Nobody has been taken advantage of in that trade, noob or not. That was the point. Why does one bottle have greater value? Because BA's have decided that place where "bottle count" and demand intersect is the end all be all of beer value? I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 128oz of Heady Topper than 11.16oz of KtG.

    Beer is meant to be drank, and as long as two parties both get something they want where's the harm? It's just beer man. #firstworldproblems
    DevilsCups likes this.
  3. TomClem

    TomClem Savant (260) Nebraska Mar 7, 2012

    While I would prefer replies enabled, I can fully understand the current situation until you get the forum vendor to fix their bug. Feedback will be awesome. Take your time and DO IT RIGHT!
  4. exitmusic00

    exitmusic00 Savant (275) Oregon Mar 15, 2010

    I'm all for the first two!

    But I am not in favor of returning to comments (unless they could return without bumping the thread, than maybe...). I've been on this site for 2.5 years - there were no comments in the Trade forum when I joined, and I was STILL fucking terrified 1+ years later when I finally posted my own ISO. But in that time, I did my homework...I watched the trade forums to gauge value and responded to several FTs. New traders need to do that on their own with the plenty of resources available to them. If they choose not to do it, they're not going to do it now, and there's no guarantee they'll do it because their post got shat upon relentlessly (this seems to be the ideal a lot of us hold onto).

    The problem with comments in ISOs is that they can't stay on topic...over here you have people who start trying to out-clever one another, and over here are people posting memes, etc. Even the productive posts in the current Trading/General forum at times tend to preface their posts with "Before everyone jumps down your throat, here's some information..." We're quick to pounce on something that doesn't mesh with our own notions of what is fair.

    If someone proposes a shit trade, it likely won't get done. If it does, then the other trader either (A) doesn't care about our perceived notion of value, or (B) has a lot to learn. If it's B, then that goes back to my original point...thoughtful traders research these things on their own. We can't bully people into putting in that work.
  5. tewaris

    tewaris Advocate (595) Minnesota Jul 14, 2009

    Well then go ahead and care less.
    ---
    Another vote for trader feedback and bad trader sticky.
    LambicKing, JeepCop and lurchingbeast like this.
  6. First off, please DO NOT add comments back into the ISO:FT, i have taken advantage of so many dumb noobs now that i can't get called out on uneven offers, my wealth is growing dramatically.

    Secondly, that feedback thing is also a bad idea.
    rrryanc, Shilt, bum732 and 20 others like this.
  7. As much as I love (and can't help myself) calling people out on obnoxious ISO:FTs or ridiculously over valuing their beers, not having comments is much better overall. I love piling up "Likes," but after having about 100 taken away from several deleted threads, who cares. Plus Im sure we all like having less to No timeouts. :)

    I agree with the other ideas as well.
  8. digita7693

    digita7693 Advocate (575) Germany Jan 19, 2010

    forgetfu likes this.
  9. baconsausage

    baconsausage Savant (270) Vermont Jun 28, 2010

    return profile comments and wants/gots
    Retail1LO likes this.
  10. podunkparte

    podunkparte Initiate (0) Washington Nov 14, 2009

    Since he posted a sarcastic comment 2 posts above you I'm gonna have to go ahead an assume that whole thread is meant in sarcasm too.
  11. digita7693

    digita7693 Advocate (575) Germany Jan 19, 2010

    yeah, I saw that just after I posted mine... however similar statements are all too common recently.
  12. podunkparte

    podunkparte Initiate (0) Washington Nov 14, 2009

    True. Looks like he's making a point as to why we should be able to comment on trade threads.
  13. digita7693

    digita7693 Advocate (575) Germany Jan 19, 2010

    exactly, and I agree:)
  14. cavedave

    cavedave Champion (930) New York Mar 12, 2009

    Don't hold your breath. He used the right word but it was pointed the wrong way.
  15. cavedave

    cavedave Champion (930) New York Mar 12, 2009

    Allow replies. Install moderators willing to keep order, and who know the ropes of trading well enough to do it fairly and well.

    Re-install a minimum time requirement for using the ISO/FT. Too many bad traders are new to the site. Too many of the ridiculous trade offers are by folks new to the site.

    And for the rest of us - once replies are back, let's make the mods jobs easier by reporting those who post abusively. I know I too am old school, and hesitate to press that report button, but if replies come back I for one will be righteous about it.
    domtronzero, kscaldef, Etan and 3 others like this.
  16. CWBlues

    CWBlues Savant (310) Indiana May 4, 2011

    This one. When I was new here, I learned a lot about beer, trading, and the community through the waiting period. All of that learning made me a better, smarter trader.
    claaark13 likes this.
  17. Rempo

    Rempo Initiate (0) Indiana Jan 18, 2010

    If it bumps the thread, no replies.
    crushedvol and CWBlues like this.
  18. Brew33

    Brew33 Advocate (610) Ohio Oct 24, 2007

    Funny how the people asking to bring back posting on ISO:FT threads are notorious for trying to dictate the value of their beers and comment to make sure deals get done that they deem fair.
    sarro and Retail1LO like this.
  19. Bad Trader Sticky is a great idea.
    -Bad Trader Flag on profile and all posts in iso/ft is a better idea
    101 is a great idea too
    I am mixed on the replys.
    -Maybe make it so they dont bump the thread
    -Maybe make it so the op can delete comments at will, thus effectively ending threadshitting.
    Edit: Definitely bring back the waiting period to post in the iso forum. It was a great way for the newbs to learn the ropes.

    EDIT2: Make it so that users only get 3 REPLY posts a week in the ISO/FT forum. That would make people think twice about posting on every thread commenting about how lopsided it is.
  20. Please keep the replies off, and limit people to three ISO/FT's a week.

    The argument that replies are needed for the sake of n00bs is tiresome. The fact is, replies give no indication whatsoever that a deal got done. Zero. Even if the involved parties say it did, it's not necessarily true. People can get the answers to their questions by directly communicating with someone. Period. If a n00b can't use this section to ask questions regarding the fairness of a trade, then he shouldn't be trading. You can get any information you need by asking RIGHT...HERE. When I was a n00b...some of the shit that was said in MY threads, was seriously disheartening. The vast majority of it wasn't helpful at all...just hyper critical. People want to reply to serve their own interests more than that of the individual posting the ISO/FT. Quite simply...I don't care even a little bit what anyone thinks of my proposal. You like it and want to get something done? BM me. You don't? Move along. If you think I'm trolling, report the post and file a grievance with management.

    If people can't get a grip on trading, then the combination of a Trading 101 sticky as others have suggested, and the ability to come here and openly discuss possibilities before posting an ISO/FT...should be more than sufficient. I truly believe if you limit people to how many ISO/FT's people can post in a week, they'll be much more productive with them. For those that seem to think you need more than 3 a week, you either need seek professional help, or learn to put together an ISO in such a manner that you can kill a few birds with one stone. Anyone who can't accomplish their trading goals with 156 threads a year, should probably consult the Trading 101 post.

    The bad trader sticky thread is awesome, so +1 to that.
    The idea of letting OP delete comments is also a great idea. Hell, put an option in there so the OP can opt for either allowing replies, or not allowing them.
    Another +1 for bringing back a moratorium for new users before they're allowed to post trades. Make it longer than it was last time.
    Make bad traders visible. Either change the font color of their screen name or whatever. Create a button on people's profile we can click to initiate a bad trader complaint and allow us to input the situation so others and see it. There needs to be a resolution center, of sorts, where the situation can be laid out, and two parties can respond to one another's gripes, and a way to close the dispute if/when things have been resolved. Make it possible to see if someone's involved in such a dispute. Bad trading can be held to a minimum if there's a medium present to make people fully visible once they're involved in a bad deal.

    And a quick thank you for soliciting folks opinions on this...and for the time and effort you're putting into it.
    BobZ, cavedave, tjohn2401 and 3 others like this.
  21. SchuStar

    SchuStar Savant (275) Illinois Mar 21, 2011

    Ehh, I don't know about that one. If there's over ISO 100 posts a week and you have any limit on what you can respond to how could that help? You would have wish you commented on a post Monday but saved them for Friday? Or now you can't comment on any post on Thursday because I used my 3 posts on Monday?
  22. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Ohio Nov 12, 2010

    I am on the side of NO replies on ISO:FT posts. 99% of the threadshitting is not helpful. Most of it is to either dictate their own value of beers or to just try to be funny and get the most likes.
    sarro and Retail1LO like this.
  23. Both stickies are long overdue.

    I'm definitely in favor of bringing replies back for a variety of reasons. (I think threadshitting to the point of hurting a trade is extremely overblown, replies offer lots of great info, replies make the forums a lot more interesting and fun, educational for noobs, cuts down on ridiculous ISO/FT offers)

    I really still would like to see ISO/FT mods. I realize you guys are hesitant about mods, but that is one forum that would really benefit from it.

    If you can't/won't do mods though, I'd propose a couple of other solutions for bringing ISO/FT comments back:

    - No replies to ISO/FT's until you have 6-12 months on the site, or maybe 100 forum posts, or something along those lines.

    - Some sort of "3 strikes" threadshitting policy. It's generally the same people who threadshit over and over - if people can't be responsible, then take the ability to reply in ISO/FT away from them. No need to harm everybody else for the errors of a few.
    sliverX likes this.
  24. SeaWatchman

    SeaWatchman Initiate (0) Mar 24, 2012

    Again... nuke the trading forums.
  25. sarro

    sarro Savant (345) Michigan May 12, 2009

    You guys realize there were trading mods in place before right?
  26. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,430) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    This too is an option that's been considered, for legal reasons and for the sake of our collective sanity.
  27. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,430) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    There were never trading mods; just a small group of users who helped us by giving us their input.
  28. sarro

    sarro Savant (345) Michigan May 12, 2009

    Gotcha.
    If you're not willing to give moderating ability to others though and you don't wanna deal with the headache of the trade forums, you might as well leave it as no reply then.
  29. MordorMongo

    MordorMongo Initiate (0) Jul 19, 2009

    Interesting from a guy openly selling beer on his profile and listing a trade history.
  30. Agold

    Agold Advocate (510) Pennsylvania Mar 13, 2010

    Just because something could happen doesn't mean it will or it should. So everyone who has a passing interest at the plausibility of a particular thread should just BM the person who started the thread? You don't think they're just going to say "its a great offer, you should take it!!". Or should people just start a thread saying "Hey guys, Is this trade fair or is it complete bullshit" in this forum? Are you out of your mind? The biggest problem with noobs isn't that they don't know things, its that they don't know that they don't know things but they think they already know everything. You can't put everything in a beer 101 sticky, but allowing comments covers everything.

    What would you do if you saw a thread that said "FT 2009 Abyss, ISO: Beat"? Do you think trading 101 should turn into a multi page list of every beer that has ever been infected so a new trader will know to exhibit caution when trading for it, or should we allow replies and let people tell the OP and everyone who reads the thread that they should trade for that beer with caution? Can you really not see how people posting in a poor offer could somehow be an indicator of the quality of that offer. And if you didn't see some of the shit people said in your threads and adjust your offers accordingly instead of putting on your tinfoil hat and assuming everyone was just out to hype the value of that bottle that they had in their cellars, then you are being intentionally dense. If you don't care what people think of your trades and trade proposals, you should welcome threadshitting because it bumps your thread/gets it more views.

    How have you ever been harmed at all by a post in one of your trade threads? I still have not found a way in which a reply to a trade thread has ever caused anyone any harm at all. Only people who could arguably claim that replies were even an inconvenience are the bros who have to clean up after all the reports people send because someone is upset that people think their trade is ridiculous, which could be easily fixed by adding mods who are experienced and well respected traders.
    cavedave and Photekut like this.
  31. A) Obviously, had that happened, the world would have come to an end. Good things replies aren't enabled, it saved the world!

    But seriously, who is being helped by the threadshitting that will once again go on if replies are enabled? Again, there seems to be the perception that once someone puts an ISO:FT up, they are holding a gun to the collective heads of all other BAs and forcing them to first read the ISO:FT, and then make an unequitable trade against their wills. I don't see things that way. I simply see replies as everybody throwing their two cents in when it hasn't been asked for. If you need help, post a thread asking what your trade value is or should be. Once you've requested help, there will be no shortage of people to guide you.

    B) I can't tell if you are serious, but I certainly wasn't when I threw that line in there. I love how you seize on a throwaway sentence in the middle of my post and post your questions off of that ;)
  32. evilc

    evilc Initiate (0) California Jan 27, 2012

    I haven't had a timeout since the change. Coincidence? =)
    domtronzero likes this.
  33. shyhenry

    shyhenry Aficionado (145) Virginia Oct 11, 2010

    I feel there's a bit of unfair revisionism going on in regard to the old system of trade replies.

    I found replies to be generally helpful and informative. Our rush to generalize the former system as some massive thread-shitting clusterfuck ignores all the helpful comments and constructive criticism that many members submitted.
    CBlack85, Mandark, bryanole27 and 4 others like this.
  34. Agold

    Agold Advocate (510) Pennsylvania Mar 13, 2010

    I was not serious. I was having fun on a forum on the internet.

    I can say it again if you would like. New traders are helped by replies. Sometimes quantity for quality works, but that is exceedingly rare these days. Sometimes asking for an IP trade and offering locals works... oh wait. No it doesn't. People aren't forced into a trade but they might not know about BA Yeti or 09 Abyss or any of the other many infections that happen to different vintages of beers. Maybe the OP learns that they have to add to their side to get a trade done. Or maybe they get a few extra views and a BA decides the deal is worth making and they get their trade done. Maybe (as has happened before) people figure out that an account is connected to another one that has a shady history and they post it in their trade thread to keep people away. It keeps bullshit offers to a minimum because there is at least a mild consequence for posting a stupid offer and gets rid of people who are legitimately trying to get one over on a new user (a situation which was referenced earlier in this thread).

    So there are just a few people and situations that will be helped by threadshitting. Now it is your turn to come up with an equally compelling list of ways people are hurt by threadshitting. extra points if you could come up with one that would not be fixed by adding a mod who is an experienced trader and a million points if you can do it without referencing russled jimmies.
    cavedave likes this.
  35. johnyb

    johnyb Advocate (530) Florida Aug 11, 2012

    You just never know when somebody is gonna piss on your rug..............

  36. LOL HOW? Easy. People raid my thread chiming in that what I'm asking for is unrealistic after I've got something lined up...then the person comes back and says "You know...I'm having second thoughts. Everyone seems to think you're holding me over a fire on this one. I'm going ot have to reconsider." No one else has any business whatsoever giving their two cents on whether they'd make the deal offered or not...unless I ask them. If I'm getting crickets, then obviously I've constructed a poor trade proposal. If it closes, then there was value in it. If someone questions the value of it, they can start a thread in the General/Help section and solicit opinions.

    And the day someone else starts dictating what trade offers I'm allowed to make, is the day I leave this site. The fact is...ridiculous trade proposal or sound one...the people that reply are more often than not replying out of their own best interest. They're seldom attempting to be helpful or insightful. They're just trying to entertain themselves as if the ability to reply is their own personal toy.

    They're better off using a thumbs up/thumbs down function. So people could get a quick idea of what others thought of the trade without having to endure the threadshitting and even worry about moderating.
  37. I'd wager that has actually happened less times than the opposite scenario - whereby a person sees all the negative drama and ponies up to get the trade done and prove a point. In fact, I've seen the latter happen dozens of times, and I'm not sure I've ever even seen the former. Threadshitting is a bit of a boogeyman.
  38. The trading forum may well be broken past the point of repairing. A lot of the old guard is now gone, beer releases are usually a nightmare, and trade values have continued to trend up as every beer is suddenly more and more RARE than the last. (Helped along by the reality that people now know they can collude to hoard to artificially inflate trade value.)

    If it's going to continue, we need a trade feedback system and a sticky for sure. I'm also in favor of replies with a better system in place to curb the useless chatter. A three strike and you're out policy for comments which really are negative and meant to stop a trade from happening or inflate a beer's value. Good information, as rare as it is, stays.
    cavedave likes this.
  39. Agold

    Agold Advocate (510) Pennsylvania Mar 13, 2010

    So you were "harmed" because someone who didn't realize you were making a ridiculous offer found out that they could get a better offer for their beer and decided to go elsewhere? That's cool I guess. **Edit: also, see cbeer88 post. That.** It's like free speech. You can say whatever you want, but free speech is not freedom from consequences. You can make whatever offer you want, but if it's dumb, people should be able to say so. Open information is good.

    And just because you don't see people's responses as helpful or insightful does not mean that they aren't. And even if they were, lack of aid or insight is not harmful. And this is a forum on the internet. It is here to entertain us. I know some would have you believe that this is very serious business, but it is just a place where a bunch of people shoot the shit about beer and have fun on the internet. Without people "trying to entertain themselves" 99.999% of the internet would not exist.

    And when you say that we wouldn't have to worry about moderating, you say that as if it were an undue burden that would be forced on someone. I would bet if the bros solicited volunteers to moderate the trading forum they would get dozens of responses to choose from. No one has to worry about moderating. Endure threadshitting? You have to endure a chick flick that a girl drags you to or a mandatory lecture or pain or hardship. These are things you cannot escape. Responses on an internet forum are quite easily avoidable.
    cavedave and Photekut like this.
  40. tjohn2401

    tjohn2401 Aficionado (145) Michigan May 26, 2010

    Does anyone have an actual case of a trade that happened in which an ignorant new trader got taken advantage of?
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