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So now that threadshitting is back in full-effect ...

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk & Help' started by Todd, Apr 25, 2012.

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  1. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    We're thinking ...
    • We'd like to add some mods eventually, but have yet to find anyone we feel could handle the job properly. Serious recommendations are welcome, but anyone with even a slight history of trolling will not be considered.
    • We'd like to keep comments open. We feel that sometimes it can help the trader and others.
    • Some form of post count minimum. Noob traders should become a part of the community vs. just jumping in to trade. This would allow potential trading partners to get a feel for the noob trader by looking at their posts / how they interact with the community.
    • Continue to issue warnings and timeouts for offenders. It seems to be working.
    • Define what "threadshitting" really is, so people don't report petty things.
    That's it for now, and whatever we do we'd like to make it simple and not overly restrictive, but something needs to be done.

    Your turn. Ideas? Comments?

    Thanks all.
  2. surlytheduff

    surlytheduff Savant (425) Tajikistan Jul 22, 2010 Beer Trader

    'Helpful' unsolicited replies to someone's ISO post help bury less-controversial ISO's. Is there any way to allow for replies but maintain a global date-submission sorted list?
  3. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    You can sort posts by date posted vs. last replied to.

    Go here: http://beeradvocate.com/community/forums/iso-ft.25/

    Scroll down the "Thread Display Options" bar. Click it. Selection your desired options. Set. Done.
    claaark13 likes this.
  4. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    I think that, in general, a time limit is better than a postcount limit. Postcount will probably just cause people to post a bunch of pointless replies in order to get it, sort of the way the karma limit sometimes made people put in bogus reviews.

    Otherwise I agree on all points. I think mods would be great, a better definition for more reliable reporting would be great, and above all keeping comments open is great.

    I've heard that that only works per session. I don't know because I've never used it, but if that's the case it's not quite as useful, doing it every time would be a bit of a pain.
    alwaysanswerb likes this.
  5. dblab33

    dblab33 Savant (375) Michigan Dec 9, 2011

    It would be very nice to have reasonable moderators that can enforce rules based on what you ultimately define as threadshitting. I think that definition is pretty clear based on what we've seen since the forum has been open to replies. If the comment isn't helpful or productive in helping the OP complete their trade or adjust their offer to ultimately complete their trade.... it's probably threadshitting. If an ISO or FT is soooo far out of line, it's just not going to get done.... if you can not provide constructive criticsm, don't troll or threadshit - just mind your own damn business and move on.
  6. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Advocate (700) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    This is true. Even when you enter a post and then click the link at the top to go back to ISO:FT, it defaults back to "last posted".
    alwaysanswerb likes this.
  7. cavedave

    cavedave Poobah (1,070) New York Mar 12, 2009 Beer Trader

    Properly modified the ISO board could be the safe and happy place to trade it once was. I DO NOT nominate myself for mod :)
    johnhenryconway likes this.
  8. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Possibly, but it would be far less useful to others.
    ShogoKawada likes this.
  9. evilc

    evilc Initiate (0) California Jan 27, 2012

    Mods can make or break an online community - choose wisely and remove them when they feel they are Pharoahs.
  10. gamwich

    gamwich Aficionado (225) Hawaii Feb 9, 2006

    A combination of both minimum posts and time on the site keep folks from post-whoring and gaming the system, especially if you don't advertise the exact requirements but simply encourage new members that access will com with time and participation.
  11. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Yeah, it's unfortunately only good for sorting purpose. Once you leave the forum list view it resets. But we don't want to force the view either.
  12. nanobrew

    nanobrew Advocate (645) California Dec 31, 2008

    Overall I really like the ideas suggested. I really liked the post (karma) minimum when it was used before. I think it forces people to be a "part of" BA. Plus it forces them to poke around and get use to how things work and learn some information. If people are truly only interested in trading and nothing else on BA, there are other options to do that. I feel BA should be more about beer information and conversations.
    tobelerone and StarRaptor like this.
  13. surlytheduff

    surlytheduff Savant (425) Tajikistan Jul 22, 2010 Beer Trader

    As noted earlier, this is per-session (not per browser session, but per time you are in that particular forum area). So again, this is just my feedback. I don't think that it's fair to have a default view on a trading forum that allows for burying of ISO/FT posts because they aren't controversial. That was one of the things that I really enjoyed when the old trading forum went post-only: it was very easy to keep up on posts.
    alwaysanswerb and Rempo like this.
  14. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Advocate (700) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    Does this mean you don't want the default to be "Time of Thread Creation"? If so, is there any particular reason why? That seems to be one of the major gripes that people have with allowing replies in ISO:FT. Not necessarily only for viewing purposes, but also it can bury posts rather quickly.
  15. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Correct. It's not an option that we can set (big reason) and would require hacking the code for just that forum. It also assumes that everyone wants that for the default, which I can assure you they don't.
  16. claaark13

    claaark13 Advocate (725) Indiana Nov 29, 2007 Beer Trader

    Unfortunately, as active users we all have some favorable/unfavorable bias towards certain arguments, other users, etc. Nominating someone who has been on the site for a long time and has a positive reputation sounds great, but each eligible user involved with a lot of posting/trading will have a different perspective because they are still involved so much in the community.

    For instance, there are a couple people I've dealt with either through trading or personally that are good members of the site and I'd recommend. However, these same people are still very active in trading and may have strong opinions. Trading partners, tasting group members or friends may get more posting lenience than the average person. Or, maybe they have a preexisting negative opinion about a couple users and aren't able to get past that.

    It sucks that the people who are most qualified for the job have probably done some trolling in the past or are too active in the trading scene. Not sure if there is a great answer to this.
  17. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Advocate (700) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    Gotcha, I had a suspicion this was the case. I'm good with either way, but I know that came up a lot in the other threadshitting thread :D
  18. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Actually you made the answer clear. Pick someone who is not a beer trader and have them simply mod (ISO:FT and other forums) based on the rules.
    ShogoKawada likes this.
  19. stupac2

    stupac2 Advocate (565) California Feb 22, 2011

    How many people are really active on BA without being traders? I can think of, like, jesskidden (who may trade for all I know).
    afksports likes this.
  20. surlytheduff

    surlytheduff Savant (425) Tajikistan Jul 22, 2010 Beer Trader

    Ok, so changing the ISO forum to create-date default isn't an option.

    I guess my next question would be - is the reason for not maintaining the ISO forum as post-only a technical issue also?

    It seems like you went through this decision process once before; that is the reason why there is a trading general questions forum. I think that there is more unsolicited input happening now than there was before the lockdown, so has it just come to be seen as something that is now deemed useful (whereas before it was seen as problematic)?
  21. nanobrew

    nanobrew Advocate (645) California Dec 31, 2008

    I am sure there are a good amount of people out there. I have been very active on BA for years and do very little trading (only a couple IP and even fewer shipping trades a year). I would guess there are people who even trade less than me.
  22. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Tons. Beer traders on BA are a small percentage of our really active users. :eek: *shocker!*
  23. Pahn

    Pahn Champion (850) New York Dec 2, 2009 Beer Trader

    agree completely, but think that it's important that they tread lightly / not power trip too much, since people will be trying to exploit the report function + they might not get some of the nuances of people's interaction. regardless of how much power they have, clear rules + non-trader sounds perfect to me.
    ShogoKawada and claaark13 like this.
  24. claaark13

    claaark13 Advocate (725) Indiana Nov 29, 2007 Beer Trader

    I only know you from the trading forums and a handful of other posts. However, you have a good amount of followers so it seems there are plenty of people who may vouch for you if you're interested.

    stupac2 - I agree with your point; there aren't a ton of nanobrews out there.
  25. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Nope. We could implement it immediately. However, like I said above: "We'd like to keep comments open. We feel that sometimes it can help the trader and others."

    So I guess it depends if most think otherwise.
  26. brian23456

    brian23456 Savant (265) Minnesota Apr 29, 2008

    Good stuff Todd.

    Defining "threadshitting" as it applies to the trading forum is a necessity at this point. Some people have been calling "threadshit!" for almost any reply in a ISO/FT thread. Most of the useless, lengthy arguments come from a accusation and a defense.
    I really liked the limit on how many ISO's you can post in a week and the no self bump rules, what did you guys think? It seems to me there is usually 2 or 3 ISO/FTs from the same couple people on the front page everyday. I think there is still a no bumping rule in effect, but when you see a post with 3 replies all from the OP.....

    As far as the definition of threadshitting, I'll throw out a starting point:
    Denouncing a trade offer without providing helpful information?
    Insulting or malicious replies?

    I hope we can keep the comical and curious posts in the trading forum and not just restrict responses to information only. Despite what some people may think, beer trading is not serious business!

    Edit----Can we please openly trade Mead????
    aasher, gklover1 and MarkIntihar like this.
  27. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Savant (465) New York Jun 7, 2005

    Agree with this point. We should go back to the 3 ISO/FT posts/week limitation.
    cosmicevan likes this.
  28. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Moderation is never perfect. Someone will always find issue with a mod's actions.
    MrVonzipper likes this.
  29. JM03

    JM03 Savant (315) Ohio Nov 12, 2010

    I also think we could possibly put in place some stricter rules for those posting the initial ISO: . If they are more clear with what they want, what they are trading, how many of each, etc.... that would avoid many of the questions/replies to the thread which could be construed as a threadshit.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  30. ehammond1

    ehammond1 Champion (790) Jul 4, 2008

    I nominate nanobrew for mod.
    SageO, cpinto6 and BdubleEdubleRUN like this.
  31. Hanzo

    Hanzo Champion (975) Virginia Feb 27, 2012

    So if you've ever thread shat you are out of the running? What if you've only done it once*.....?

    *or a few times?
    MrVonzipper and AutumnBeerLove like this.
  32. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Depends. I've seen a few BAs think they were being funny and others liking their comments in a trade post that had nothing to do with them or the trade. This is threadshitting; the OP agreed and reported it.
  33. I'm on this team.
  34. I'm a big fan of the time/post limit. It's really not unreasonable to expect somebody to put in 3 months and/or a certain number of posts before allowing ISO/FT privileges.

    As the threadshitting thread has shown, I think it's really hard to put a tight definition around a "threadshit". It almost seems like it needs to be left in the hands of mods with some basic guidelines. To take a stab at those guidelines, I think tone and intent are a big part of it. i.e. if you're going to comment to help out a new trader, be polite and educational. If you're doing it in a self-serving manner (i.e. you have an FT up for the same beer asking for more), then it should be removed.
  35. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    For someone who's 1 warning point away from being put into a 1 month timeout, I'd post wisely. ;)
  36. brian23456

    brian23456 Savant (265) Minnesota Apr 29, 2008

    I suppose my defintion for "threadshitting" was way off then?
  37. Crawfordesquire

    Crawfordesquire Savant (355) California Dec 20, 2011 Beer Trader

    I nominate hanzo.
  38. Todd

    Todd Founder (1,685) Colorado Aug 23, 1996 Staff Member

    Nope. I was commenting to the general notion of having fun, at the expense of others.
  39. nanobrew

    nanobrew Advocate (645) California Dec 31, 2008

    I agree with this. And I think tone might be the main thing that gets narrowed down. Intent is fairly easy to distinguish. Tone however is hard. As I mentioned in that thread, a lot of people try to act "cute" and "funny". Though their intent may be appropriate, the tone can set the thread down hill. If you have something appropriate to say, then say it in an appropriate manner.
  40. I'm totally on board with non-traders for mods, but, I think it has to be people that pay attention to the trade market. (Or really willing to invest the necessary time to learn) Almost needs to be an ex-trader, or an extremely infrequent one. There's a lot of minutiae to this hobby. For example, regular traders can call out many infected vintages at the mere name of the beer, but I'm not sure non-traders would know that.
    afksports and Holland like this.
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