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Style-defining beers?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by coocookuhchoo, Oct 6, 2012.

  1. JimDH

    JimDH Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    I don't think it tastes bad, it just doesn't taste like much at all. Apparently the late Pierre Celis, who brought back the style and built Hoegaarden, complained about pressure from partner Interbrew (whom he later sold to) to cheapen the process, so it's probably not the same. He's credited with having consulted in St. Bernardus's witbier, so if true maybe that's close. And Allagash seems just right. I'll agree it probably isn't Hoegaarden.

    http://belgianbeerspecialist.blogspot.com/2011/04/pierre-celis-conversation-in-hoegaarden.html
    http://www.beer-pages.com/stories/celis.htm
    DanK4 likes this.
  2. DanK4

    DanK4 Member

    Location:
    Maine
    Thanks for the articles! I had no idea the history behind Hoegaarden and that was a great read. Must've killed Pierre to see his brewery overtaken like that. I wonder if the old brewery is open to the public?
  3. raynmoon

    raynmoon Member

    Location:
    California
    I think wha people are going to start posting is the best/ newest of the style, whereas I see this post differently.

    I would say Sierra Nevada Pale Ale/ Stout/ and Bigfoot to all be style defining.

    Same goes for Old Rasputin, Anchor Porter maybe.
  4. wonderbread23

    wonderbread23 Member

    Location:
    New York
    Boubon barrel aged beers are awesome, but they do not define the base styles. KBS is not a good representation of a Russian Imperial Stout, King Henry is not a good representation of English Barley Wine. To me, when I think of a quintessential style definer I think about beers that cam to define that style. Some examples:

    American Pale Ale - SNPA
    American Barley Wine - SN Bigfoot
    Steam Beer - Anchor Steam
    Imperial Stout - Old Rasputin
    Dopplebock - Ayinger Celebrator
    American Wheat - Widmer Hefeweizen
    Saison - Saison Dupont
    Boh Pils - Pilsner Urquell
    English Bitter - Fullers London Pride
    American Brown - Moose Drool
    N. English Brown - Newcastle
    Dry Stout - Guinness
    gtermi, mikehblack and Bluecane like this.
  5. UCLABrewN84

    UCLABrewN84 Member

    Location:
    California
    Anchor Steam
  6. kolschboy

    kolschboy Member

    Location:
    North Carolina
    That horse (all top-fermenters are ales) is so far out of the barn that it will never return I'm afraid.
    RyanMM likes this.
  7. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Member

    Location:
    Washington
    Why is that everytime I mention BJCP on this site I get publicly flogged for promoting beer education?
    doobliebop likes this.
  8. patto1ro

    patto1ro Member

    Location:
    Netherlands
    Because - er, what's the oppsoite of education? - whatever it is, that's what the BJCP is promoting.
    jesskidden likes this.
  9. There certainly seems to be an acceptance of the notion, particularly among US homebrewers and it's easy to see how it came about.But if people were better informed we wouldn't have these posts about whether Baltic Porter is a lager or an ale or why the Germans legally define Kolsch as a lager when it's top fermented :)
  10. mintjellie

    mintjellie Member

    Location:
    Ontario (Canada)
    Kolsch is a lager, even if it's made with a top-fermenting yeast. It receives an extended cold fermentation/conditioning. Thats what it means to lager a beer right? Baltic porter is also often cold-fermented, making it a lager. Unless it isn't, which some aren't, and those would be ales. California common is a bottom-fermented ale, since it's brewed at warmer temperatures and isn't cold conditioned.

    It's the process that makes the beer a lager or ale, not the strain of yeast.

    Is that what you guys are getting at?
  11. BreakingBad

    BreakingBad Member

    K i'll say it I guess....
    Dark Lord- Hyped up limited release "one day at the brewery" beers

    *note not responding to any comments cause this will prob generate some hate*
    RyanMM likes this.
  12. BreakingBad

    BreakingBad Member

    Bourbon county stout- bourbon barrel aged imperial stouts
  13. Almost there but like many of my compatriots I'm unhappy by how "ale" has been hijacked and misrepresented.To call all top fermented brews ales is as accurate as calling all those of us in the UK English.Predominately we are but the Welsh, Scots and Irish don't like it.
    I also hear that the yeast defines the beer where in fact the brewing conditions have defined the yeast. But with the net things just get repeated, copied and repeated again whether true or not.
    PrinceCaspian72 likes this.
  14. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Member

    Location:
    New York
    I believe Anchor Liberty Ale predates Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.
  15. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Member

    Location:
    New York
    Part of what makes your argument an uphill battle is not only the "net", but the fact that essentially every professional brewer in the US would disagree with you.
  16. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Member

    Location:
    New York
    Can you name a beer that isn't brewed predominantly with pale malt?
    hopsbreath and yeahnatenelson like this.
  17. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Member

    Location:
    Washington
    What is the alternative?
  18. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    Really, you saying Anchor Steam doesnt too?

    Those are the two I would go with as being absolutely style defining. For pretty much the same reason.
  19. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    No it doesnt. Its simple genetics.

    There are multiple ways to divide the beer world, many of which are equally valid.

    And dividing ale/lager by species of yeast is perfectly valid.
  20. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    Both are valid divisions. I prefer the yeast method myself, it makes more sense, like with cladistics in biology.
  21. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    And yet you are fine the with hijacking that allows calling something an ale if it has hops in it?
  22. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Member

    Location:
    New York
    Some people like to pick certain points in beer history and hang on to those definitions indefinitely, like pale ale is brewed predominantly with pale malt and porter/stout is brewed with porter malt, except that hasn't been true in over a century.
  23. patto1ro

    patto1ro Member

    Location:
    Netherlands
    Education, obviously. Proper education. The fact-based type.
  24. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    The German call it an Obergärigem Lager Bier, or a top fermented lagered beer. Very precise, those Germans. That, the top fermented part, is why some Koelsch brewers can use a small portion wheat in the Koelsch.

    Edit - Zum Uerige Altbier defines Duesseldorf alt to me, jsut to stay on topic a llittle.
  25. olympicgatorade

    olympicgatorade Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    15th anny
    ncaudle likes this.
  26. patto1ro

    patto1ro Member

    Location:
    Netherlands
    What about:

    Whitbread Gold Label - pale Barley Wine.
    Mackeson - Milk Stout.
    Manns - Brown Ale.
    Amstel Bock - Dutch Autumn Bok.
    Heineken Oud Bruin - Dutch Oud Bruin.
    Amsdell XX - Albany Ale.
    U Fleku - Tmavé Specialni Pivo.
    Double Maxim - Double Brown Ale.
    Younger's No. 3 - not that strong Scotch Ale.
    Päffgen - Kölsch.
    Harvey's Suusex Best Bitter - Southern Best Bitter.
  27. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Member

    Location:
    New York
    Was it you, or someone else that I recall arguing with Garrett Oliver about this on the old board?
  28. YaKnowBrady

    YaKnowBrady Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    1997 Sam Adams Triple Bock - Syrup of Ipecac.
    pschul4 likes this.
  29. My post regarding Pale Ale as being brewed predominately from pale malt remains true and was to try to elucidate why IPA isn't a Pale Ale in some people's opinion.I never mentioned porter malt.
    Worth mentioning that in UK statutes and EU law ales and porters are listed separately:
    "The opposition was based on an earlier international figurative mark, registered on 30 June 1992 under the number 470542 and extended until 30 June 2012, which produces effects in Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Austria and the Benelux countries, for the following goods in Class 32: ‘Beer, ale and porter; mineral and aerated waters and other non-alcoholic drinks; syrups and other preparations for making beverages’.
    As for American professional brewers; Shortly thereafter, AB applied to register the mark “BUDWEISER” for “beer, ale and porter” which BB opposed
  30. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    He didnt refer to you.

    And notice what that was in response to, it was me criticizing you for using ale in regards to beers that contain hops. Ales are unhopped, unless you accept the language changes of the 16th century. And if you do, time to accept the 20th and 21st century language changes too.
    Sneers likes this.
  31. InVinoVeritas

    InVinoVeritas Member

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    American Amber / Red: Ambergeedon
    American Barleywine: Central Waters Y2K
    American Double Stout: Founders Breakfast Stout
    American IPA: Two Hearted (thou I like Chinooker'd better)
    American Pale Ale: Zombie Dust
    American Porter: Founders Porter
    Belgian IPA: Bedlam
    DIPA: Heady Topper
    Fruit: WI Belgian Red
    Hefeweizen: Dancing Man Wheat
    Pumpkin: Schlafly
    RIS: Parabola
    Saison: Hennepin
    Tripel: La Fin Du Monde

    Then I'm breaking out the BA.
    BA American Barleywine: Central Waters BBBW
    BA American Double Stout: BCBS
    BA English Barleywine: King Henry

    Ask me tomorrow and a number of these will change hahaha
  32. BigCheese

    BigCheese Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    AAL: Budweiser
    Hefenweizen: Paulaner (could go with many german options)
    Czech Pils: Pilsner Urquell
    Lambic: Cantillon
    BPA: Orval
    BSPA: Duvel
    Vienna Lager: Boston Lager
    Amber Ale: Fat Tire
    Imperial Stout: Old Rasputin
    English IPA: Harpoon
    American IPA: Celebration or Stone
    DIPA: Pliny the Elder
    Robust Porter: Smuttynose
    Baltic Porter: Gonzo
    Pumpkin Ale: Smuttynose
  33. Certainly words change their meaning , sometimed markedly.Ales gradually incorporated more hops over time.But to call all top fermenting beers ales is a bit further than that; it's a bit like insisting that all dogs are Rottweilers.My wife among many others calls all vacuum cleaners Hoovers on the same basis.
    PrinceCaspian72 likes this.
  34. Seanvino

    Seanvino Member

    Location:
    California
    Paulaner Salvator-Doppelbock
  35. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    Disagree. While you and the germans might not like it, Giving a nice simple name to all the top fermenting beers makes a lot of sense. And it being "ale" does to.

    I think below best represents my view on this:

    http://xkcd.com/867/

    Im taking the ornithology viewpoint, which may also make me an asshole, but Im okay with that.

    And on a related note:

    1. Not a dinosaur
    2. But this is a dinosaur
  36. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    I think there are two things this discussion in general proves:

    1. Humans like to categorize things
    2. We suck at it
    moju and mintjellie like this.
  37. StubFaceJoe

    StubFaceJoe Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    I think you have to look to England, Germany, or Belgium to really have style defining beers. Bring it to America and we'll just bastardize it and put American in front of the title.
    jmw likes this.
  38. NoLeafClover44

    NoLeafClover44 Member

    Location:
    Delaware
    Great beer, but I think continuous (or at least regular) availability is a prerequisite for a "style defining beer."
  39. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Member

    Location:
    North Carolina
    All Stars Bakery Kvass - a bakery producing a beer made with baker's yeast.
  40. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Member

    Location:
    Washington
    "Education, obviously. Proper education. The fact-based type."
    While BJCP is merely educated recommendations and guidelines it is one of the best references to style accuracy. Care to elaborate or provide another source?

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