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The Averagely Perfect American IPA Project - Poll #7 - Select Specific Crystal Malt(s)

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Jan 18, 2013.

?

Please select one or more Crystal Malts

Poll closed Jan 20, 2013.
  1. C-10

    9.9%
  2. C-20

    29.7%
  3. C-40

    49.5%
  4. C-60

    11.0%
  5. C-80

    5.5%
  6. C-120

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. C-160

    1.1%
  8. Special B

    1.1%
  9. CaraMunich

    9.9%
  10. Golden Naked Oats

    9.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (855) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009 Verified

    Now we need to select the one or more specific Crystal Malts. Remember, the Grain bill is North American Two-Row Brewer's Malt, Carapils, and whatever other Crystal Malt(s) we pick here. You can choose more than one. Any and all selections that get votes from at least 50% of respondents will be in. If no choice gets 50%, then the one choice with the highest percentage will be in. Please note I'll not be making any attempt to distinguish between American and English crytsal malts...so for example, if you want an English 77L crystal, pick C-80.

    This poll be open for 48 hours.

    If you don't know what this thread is about, please see this thread...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/

    If you have issues with or suggestions for methodologies used in this project, please Beer Mail me.
    Let's keep the threads themselves on topic to the question at hand (not about how you would have asked the question differently). Thanks!

    The Averagely Perfect American IPA Recipe so far...
    5 Gallons
    Target ABV: 6.5%
    Target OG: 1.062
    Target FG: 1.012
    Apparent Attenuation: 81%
    Two-Row Brewer's Malt
    Carapils
    Other Crystal(s) (specific type(s) pending this poll)
     
  2. kjyost

    kjyost Champion (800) Manitoba (Canada) May 4, 2008 Verified Subscriber

    GNO - And I'm 0-7 on my votes!
     
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Champion (750) Wisconsin Aug 13, 2005 Verified

    My next beer, a pale bitter, is going to use this malt. I never used it before, so I won't vote for it here, but I am looking forward to learning about it.
     
  4. “And I'm 0-7 on my votes”

    I guess these polls have proved out that you are not an Averagely Perfect American!?!;)

    Cheers!
     
    NiceFly likes this.
  5. oregone

    oregone Savant (385) Oregon Jul 2, 2008

    I am sad that honey malt is off the table, but GNO will make a tasty brew. Average be damned!
     
  6. GNOs are really great, just mad my lhbs doesnt carry them.
     
  7. mnstorm99

    mnstorm99 Advocate (535) Minnesota May 11, 2007

    40°L is probably my preferred, and my IPA's seem to be quite "average" at this point :)
     
  8. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Savant (485) Nevada Dec 4, 2008 Verified

    GNOs are great coupled with oatmeal for a stout, but I'm not sure about an IPA
     
  9. jokelahoma

    jokelahoma Savant (460) Missouri May 9, 2004

    I went 20 and 60, because in my mind, that makes a better flavor profile than just plain old 40. But what do I know? I absolutely HATE carapils, and it got voted in.
     
  10. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Savant (485) Nevada Dec 4, 2008 Verified

    What's there to hate about Carapils?...pretty tasteless : )
     
  11. jokelahoma

    jokelahoma Savant (460) Missouri May 9, 2004

    I find it to be overused in the homebrews I taste. It's as though brewers think it's not a beer if it doesn't have a metric ass-ton of carapils in it. "So how's the beer?" "Well, get me a knife to slice this cloying stuff and once I get it chewed I'll let you know..."
     
  12. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Savant (485) Nevada Dec 4, 2008 Verified

    Could it be because it is usually used with other crystal malts also? To me it's sort of like sugar (hang with me here) in that people will add it to maltbills rather than substitute for it. I don't think it's any "chewier" than any other crystal malt by itself.
     
  13. I'd love for you to taste my sculpin clone. I use the homebrew recipe the actual beer is based on and it has a pound of carapils, 1.25 pounds of crystal 10 and 0.5 pounds of caravienna. Mine finished at 1.008 and was bone dry.

    I suspect that most homebrews you taste are extract based. Those beers tend to finish higher because the brewers have no control over mash temp.
     
  14. pweis909

    pweis909 Champion (750) Wisconsin Aug 13, 2005 Verified

    Yes, some extracts may not attenuate as well as others. Some have dextrine malts in them already, so add carapils might be redundant. But you seem to be shaving more points off your FG than I think is typical even for all grain brewers. What is the % of that crystal and carapils, what is your batch size, and what is your mash temp?

    With 5-10% cara type malts in a 5-6 gallon batch of American pale ale or IPA recipe (i.e., rarely over a pound of these grains, in total), I consistently get to 1.010 with chico yeasts and mash temps of 152-154. I'm not necessarily looking to get to 1.008, but am wondering how you get there? Or maybe I am already there and just need to calibrate my hydrometer.;)
     
  15. For that particular beer, I mashed at 147 for 90 minutes. 6 gallon batch. The only other grain involved was 11 pounds of NA 2-row.
     
    pweis909 likes this.
  16. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Champion (810) Texas May 21, 2010

    lucky for me 40L is one of my choices, lol
     
  17. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (855) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009 Verified

    Alright. C-40 it is.
     
  18. jokelahoma

    jokelahoma Savant (460) Missouri May 9, 2004

    My question then is this: If you went with 147 for 90 minutes to get a dry beer, why use carapils at all? Isn't it supposed to be tasteless (I don't think it is, but again, that's just me)? What point did it serve? Couldn't you have left it out, mashed at 149 or 150, and got pretty much the same beer in the end?

    And no, not all the beers I tasted were extract brews. It's just a personal preference, and my preference is to leave carapils way the hell away from my beers. :)
     
  19. That would be a question for whoever designed the recipe. I don't generally add carapils to my own IPAs, but it does seem like a lot of west coast breweries do. I can only guess, but maybe because a lot of them don't use much crystal malt and they want to retain head retention. I know there are a few Brewing Network shows with Vinnie Cilurzo where his beers are discussed, but I can't remember if the topic of using carapils in a dry beer comes up.
     

  20. I believe Vikeman has pointed this out before, but this an exercise in law of averages really in designing a recipe. It isn't how you would necessarily go about designing a recipe, but really how collective group would formulate a recipe. So while this may not make since to you, it part of the experiment.
     
  21. mnstorm99

    mnstorm99 Advocate (535) Minnesota May 11, 2007

    I would assume they use it to add body to a dry beer. Hops used in that quantity shouldn't have any problems giving aid to the head retention.
     
  22. “I would assume they use it to add body to a dry beer.”

    Let me ‘talk out loud’ to see if I understand this. A brewer could achieve a given final gravity by either:

    · Mash at a lower temperature (e.g., 148°F) to achieve a fermentable wort and then add carapils to achieve body
    · Mash at a somewhat higher temperature (e.g., 153°F) to obtain a wort with some body

    So what is the ‘benefit’ of mashing at 148°F and then adding carapils vs. just mashing at 153°F?

    Cheers!
     
  23. mcc1654

    mcc1654 Savant (380) Illinois Mar 20, 2011

    My guess would be that because Carapils is supposed to add body with no flavor whereas mashing at a higher temp would add body with more malt flavor. I really don't know, just an uneducated guess.
     
  24. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (395) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    Maybe I'm repeating what others have said, but to me dry talks about the finish. Dextrins/body means the middle part (of a balanced beer). So an IPA to some extent is up front hop bitterness, some type of flavor/body - sometimes malt or in the case of Pliny hop resins for body & hop/malt flavors in the middle, finishing with some type of dryness or carbonation making one eager for the next taste.

    And to think that at one time I knew how to diagram a sentence. :eek:
     
  25. “ …but to me dry talks about the finish.” Could you detail this more?

    For me, dry means very little residual sugars. I associate a dry beer with having a low final gravity. For the case of an IPA, I would consider one of my homebrewed IPAs to be dry if it reached a final gravity around 1.010.

    For one of my homebrewed Saisons, I would consider that beer to be dry if it reached a final gravity ≤ 1.005.

    Cheers!
     
  26. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (425) New York Dec 12, 2011

    The Pliny homebrew recipe (yes DIPA I know) from RR features:

    13.25 lb 2-row (87%)
    0.6 lb C45 (4%)
    0.6 lb Carapils (4%)
    0.75 lb dextrose (5%)

    for a 6 gallon batch. Mashed at 151-152 for 60 minutes. OG = 1.072, FG = 1.011.
     
  27. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (395) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    I think that were on the same page. As you point out it really isn't a number. But possibly not exactly sugars, could be that but also cloying.

    My Chad Y. Baltic Brett Porter isn't dry or sweet, but it has too much mouthfeel at the end- possibly from the spelt.
     
  28. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Savant (485) Nevada Dec 4, 2008 Verified

    Pliny is a IIPA (albeit dryer than a lot of singles)...sometimes I even forget when reminded in the same post I am responding to : )
     
  29. jokelahoma

    jokelahoma Savant (460) Missouri May 9, 2004

    Look I never said my hatred was a rational hatred. :) Didn't mean to fire up the Carapils Defense League.

    If carapils has no flavor, then its use to fill out the body of a beer when the brewer then contradicts that body by other methods seems odd to me. Of course, I don't believe carapils to be flavorless. I find it to have a cloying sweetness, especially at the levels I see too many using, as though they've heard that carapils is the magic malt that will make their mediocre beer suddenly world class. Obviously there are pro brewers using it, so no doubt it has its place (just like chefs use Brussels sprouts, which apparently have a place in the vegetable world for some unknown reason). It's just that its place isn't going to be in anything I brew.
     
  30. mnstorm99

    mnstorm99 Advocate (535) Minnesota May 11, 2007

    Really...Imalmost never use carapils. I was thinking out loud, and pointing out that IPA's hardly need help with head retention. Is it not possible to add body to a dry beer with a low FG? I understand it sounds very oxymoronic, but I am also thinking out loud.
     
  31. yinzer

    yinzer Savant (395) Pennsylvania Nov 24, 2006

    Um, did you mean to say oxymoronicial? No, oxymoronicalistic.Yeah.

    I don't do carapils. Never felt the need. You can of course add body to a dry beer. And you can also give it a dry feeling.
     
  32. mnstorm99

    mnstorm99 Advocate (535) Minnesota May 11, 2007

    Oops o_O
     
  33. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Savant (485) Nevada Dec 4, 2008 Verified

    You have been served...sincerely, Brussel Sprout AntiDefamation League : )