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Thinking of trying this recipe

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by BigJoeC, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    6# Light LME
    8oz crystal 80 steep
    8oz carapils steep

    Warrior 1oz at 60
    Amarillo 1/4oz at 45, 30, 15, 1
    Cascade 1/4oz at 60, 40, 20, 1
    Simcoe 1/2oz at 60, 30

    Any thoughts? I'm looking to make a hoppy, full bodied, smooth IPA here.

    I'm open for suggestions
     
  2. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Wanted to "watch" post and get emails. Thanks guys
     
  3. Naugled

    Naugled Savant (490) New York Sep 25, 2007

    It looks like it will make a solid IPA to me as is. All very good hops.
    Is your OG target ~ 1.055 for 5 gal?

    Comments on your goals:
    Hoppy - It will definitely be hoppy but looks more bitter forward than flavor or aroma.
    Full bodied - Somewhat hard to determine, I think it will have good body as is, so I wouldn't change the malt bill
    Smooth - I'm assuming you want hop smoothness. In my opinion the hop bill is a bit complicated. I'd do something like 1 oz Warrior at 60 and then add all the other hops at 5 min. After flame out and while chilling the hops will continue to add flavor and some bitterness. This schedule will lower the bittering components and increase the flavoring and aroma components, which will result in a 'smoother' hop profile (to my palate at least).

    My 2 cents,
    Cheers!
     
  4. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Great 2 cents. Thanks!

    I'm actually going to go with 9# LME and make it a bigger beer. More of a DIPA. I also went with 1# of crystal 90 rather than 8oz of 80. Even though I'm adding 50% more LME I may add the warrior a little later to cut the bitterness back. Also, instead of Amarillo I got Centenial since the shop was out of Amarillo.

    I may not use a starter and just pitch the WL yeast right in. So far I haven't notice a difference using a starter.

    Any other thoughts would be awesome.
     
  5. Naugled

    Naugled Savant (490) New York Sep 25, 2007

    If you're upping the OG I'd definitely make a starter. Especially since you'll have more invested in the batch now.

    It's too bad about the Amarillo, Centennial is a good hop too, but it's no Amarillo.
     
  6. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (405) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    If you haven't noticed a difference, you will after going through the work and expense of brewing a DIPA with all extract and 1# of C90, assuming you want it to finish below 1.020.
     
  7. ipas-for-life

    ipas-for-life Savant (400) Virginia Feb 28, 2012

    I would keep the 60 Min Warrior addition and leave the other hops for flavor and aroma additions(30 min or less). I would cut out the carapils with out a doubt. Most extracts are made with base malt and carapils already. As the others have said I would be worried about using one vial of liquid yeast without a starter.
     
  8. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    What would be the best way to make a starter? I've done a couple ways.
     
  9. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (405) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    1800ml aerated on a stir plate

    But more than that, their is a "rate of diminishing returns" just adding LME or DME to wort to make a stronger hoppy beer. You begin to take a DIPA all extract wort, especially with 1# of crystal, to a point that it can never be dry enough to be enjoyable (less than 1.014 IMO, better below 1.010) without making some changes to recipe, procedure, equipment, or otherwise.
     
  10. For a IIPA, I've had good luck making a Session IPA first (~1.040) and then make the IIPA by pitching on to the whole cake about 7-10 days later...caution...explosive 2nd fermentation possible : )
     
    mountsnow1010 likes this.
  11. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Champion (790) Texas May 21, 2010

    If you are going to use 9# of extract, you won't need 1.5 lbs of crystal, or even one. I'd go with a half pound of crystal.

    On the hops I'd go with the warrior at 60. Then I'd toss the rest of them in late. There are a bzillion ways that you could do the late hopping, but the "add it all at 5" comment is probably the easiest.

    Or you could mix them all together and add some of the mix at 15, 10, 5, 1, FO. :D

    Starters wise I use 100g of DME per quart of water. Leave it on the stir plate for at least a day, or shake frequently if you don't have a stir plate. Cover loosely with foil. Then you can either crash and decant, or just pitch it all, but if it's more than a quart I'd crash it and decant before pitching.
     
  12. I've save the Simcoe for flameout/dryhop.
     
  13. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Thanks man! All awesome thoughts that I will consider. Unfortunately my 8oz of carapils and 1 lb of crystal 90 are crushed together. Maybe I'll just half it and see what happens. What would happen if I use it all? I'm looking for the smoothness and fullness from the crystal
     
  14. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Champion (790) Texas May 21, 2010

    I would use half of it then. You can use the rest in another recipe later, no problem. If you use it all you'll just wind up with too many unfermentable sugars and it will be too cloyingly sweet, plus your FG will be high. The extract will provide plenty of body without needing that much crystal malt.
     
  15. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Wow! It amazes me that just 12 oz of steeping grains would make that difference.
     
  16. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (405) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    Brewing Classic Styles, which I do not have in front of me, for a DIPA of 6.5 gallons, I think, calls for only 0.5# of crystal 40 and several pounds of table sugar and a healthy large starter. I have brewed this recipe several times, and it is always difficult to get it to finish dry enough. You are starting with extract, which you have no control over its fermentability, a large amount by comparison of dark crystal/dextrin malt, and you could possibly not do a starter. You could possibly have more unfermentables than one would like and a less than ideal amount of yeast.

    You want to avoid having an overly sweet, like over 1.014 DIPA.
     
  17. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Well, I appreciate everyone's input. I played with my recipe on beercalculus. This is what I got.

    http://hopville.com/recipe/1672288

    I'm showing an og of 1.069 and a fg of 1.016
    The IBU would be 89.2 (right about where I want it)
    The ABV would be 7.1% not quite the 9 I was hoping for....any ideas on how to increase?
    It would be a meal with 227 calories per 12oz bottle

    Any other input would be cool! Thanks again guys.
     
  18. That's assuming 76% attenuation, which is probably the best you can hope for using only extract. If you were to replace a pound or two of that LME with table sugar, you could probably get it to attenuate more.
     
  19. ipas-for-life

    ipas-for-life Savant (400) Virginia Feb 28, 2012

    Add sugar to the recipe but don't over do it. Research the percentage of sugar to extract to find out how much to use. I know you don't want to hear it but I would not use those steeping grains. If you do be ready to drink this beer fast because once you start losing hop flavor and aroma it is going to be all sweetness. It could end up being good but I would bet against it.
     
  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (750) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009

    I haven't checked the rest of your (or hopville's) math, but calculating the amount of table sugar to add to a 5 gallon batch to increase ABV by 1.9% (9% - 7.1%) is pretty straight forward.

    Tabe sugar is 100% fermentable, and it contributes 46 points per pound per gallon (PPG)
    So in a 5 gallon batch, it increases gravity by 9.2 points per pound (46 PPG / 5 Gallons)
    Thus the original gravity of just the sugar contribution of this one pound in 5 gallons is 1.0092, which would ferment (on its own) down to a final gravity of 1.0000 (ignoring difference between actual and apparent attenuation).
    Pop the OG and FG into this ABV formula... ABV% = 132.6 x (OG - FG) ... and you get...
    ABV% = 132.6 x (1.0092 - 1.0000) = 1.21992%
    So 1 lb of sugar adds about 1.21992% to the ABV of a 5 gallon batch.
    Since you need 1.9%...
    divide 1.9% by 1.21992% to get about 1.56 lbs sugar needed
     
  21. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    I really don't mind that its only 7.1 ABV. I'm just going for a good tasting DIPA. What if I were to keep the steeping grains, drop the LME to 6lbs and add a couple pounds of table sugar? I can keep the LME in the frige for next time.
     
  22. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    I'm not sure how accurate Hopville's beer calculus is. Whenever I add a fermentable, even 1.5lbs of table sugar I increase both the og and fg. Isn't my goal to increase the og but decrease the fg in order to get a higher ABV but lower sweetness by keeping the fg lower (at or under 1.014)?
     
  23. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (405) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    BJCP for imperial IPA final gravity is 1.010-1.020. That is a range, but if someone would ask me, and I'm not assuming anyone is, I personally find my DIPAs that are over 1.014 too sweet. Your perceived bitterness will actually increase as your FG goes down.

    Replacing sugar for extract is not the whole story to drying out a beer. Without enough healthy active yeast, it could be an equivalent amount of pure table sugar, an insufficient amount of yeast will not get you where you want to be.
     
  24. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

  25. The idea is that adding table sugar in place of LME will create a more fermentable wort, thus your attenuation percentage will go up. It looks like hopville assumes 76% attenuation with WLP001 but that yeast is capable of 80%+ as long as you're pitching enough healthy yeast into properly aerated wort.
     
  26. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (750) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009

    You are correct. Hopville and many (most?) other calculators/programs make no attempt to distinguish between the fermentability of simple sugars vs. the fermentability of sugar profiles from grains in general, let alone between various grain types. It's a bummer.
     
  27. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    I did a starter last evening of 1 cup DME and 1 liter of water. It's roaring right now as I rouse it every time I pass. I haven't gotten a stir plate yet.

    Would 6 lb LME and table sugar be better?

    I really appreciate all the input and I look forward to being as knowledgable as you guys thanks to your help and reading.
     
  28. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (750) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009

    Run the new recipe (without the sugar) through hopville, then add the sugar impact using the formula I posted.
     
  29. You will get a drier beer than if you used the 9 pounds of LME, which is more ideal for a DIPA.
     
  30. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    OK. So I will use the original recipe but add 1.5 lbs of table sugar to it like Vike said? It would increase the alcohol level while making it a more dry beer? Or should I go with 6 lbs of LME and 3 lbs of table sugar?

    When we say table sugar we are talking standard white granulated sugar, right?
     
  31. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (405) Louisiana Dec 3, 2005

    Yep. Plain old table sugar. One common option is to add it 15 minutes before the end of the boil.
     
  32. If you use 9 pounds of LME plus 1.5 pounds of sugar, you're going to raise your OG but your FG will still probably be high as well. Extract typically has lower attenuation and will finish higher. I never had an extract beer go below 1.016. If you replace some of your extract with sugar, your FG will be lower because you will end up with a more fermentable wort. 3 pounds of sugar is probably about the maximum amount you'd want to use in a beer.

    If this were my beer, I'd cut the steeping grains in half, use 7 pounds of LME and 2 pounds of table sugar.

    And yes, we're talking plain old white sugar that you buy at the grocery store. As someone else said, add it about 15 minutes before flame out.
     
  33. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011


    I think I will try the above. 7 lbs LME, cut steeping grains in half and use 2 lbs of sugar.

    What ABV do you believe I would achieve this way? Would this be a true DIPA? It sounds close to me.
     
  34. According to Beer Smith, that would get you an OG of 1.072 for a 5 gallon batch. If you attenuate down to 1.010, you'd have an 8.1% ABV beer. Sounds like DIPA territory to me.

    I'd pitch 2 packets of US-05 or a huge starter of WLP001 to ensure you get the attenuation you're looking for.
     
  35. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Cool. My starter is pretty nice.

    The calories projected is ridiculous too! Man! Not your "light" beer huh? It amazes me how high it can get. I don't mind it but it's up there.
     
  36. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Ok. I'm about to start this brew. I've gotten sooo many ideas about how I should go about it. I have a 9 lbs of LME, 1 lb of crystal 90, 1/2 lb of carapils and hops (1 oz of each Amarillo, cascade, centennial, Simcoe). I've heard everything from cut the LME and add 2 lb sugar at 15 min, cut grains by half, add 1.5 lb sugar. I can't decide but I need to now. Any last thoughts?
     
  37. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Champion (790) Texas May 21, 2010

    Cut out one pound of LME and add one pound of sugar.

    Or just go for it and see what comes out. I'm sure it will be drinkable. :D
     
    GreenKrusty101 likes this.
  38. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Well. I just brewed.

    Steep 1lb Crystal 90 and 8oz Carapils
    9lb LME

    Hops
    Warrior - 1/4oz at 60, 45, 40, 15
    Cascade - 1/4oz at 60, 40, 20, 1
    Centenial - 1/4oz at 45, 30, 15, 1
    Simcoe - 1/2oz at 30, 1

    Started with about 6 gal and ended with an even 5 gal
    OG was 1.064

    I'm looking forward to the results. Any predictions?
     
  39. "Any predictions?"

    Dogfishhead 120ish...and a lite 250 calories : )
     
    samtallica likes this.
  40. BigJoeC

    BigJoeC Aficionado (155) New Jersey Jan 22, 2011

    Haha. Awesome! We will see. It is darker than 120 so far. And smells awesome.
     

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