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Three Floyds: "Regarding Second Market Dark Lord Sales"

Discussion in 'Great Lakes' started by averagejake872, May 1, 2012.

  1. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Savant (365) Georgia Feb 25, 2010

    I can't come up with a better example than airports since they actually have a ton of people go through every day and they have to match a ticket name with a picture ID. If you have a better example, I'm all ears.

    Also they're not lame threats, just facts...there's no use in answering when you don't bring up any valid points to base an argument on. You basically just keep saying "because I said so" instead of providing actual reasons so there's no use in trying to get you to be specific...I've given up.
  2. paslaugh

    paslaugh Aficionado (170) Illinois Feb 17, 2012

    Not saying they're actually doing this. I think it's far more likely that they pay every cent due to the IRS. I just didn't see a single person handed a receipt or any record of the transactions ever occurring. Just seemed funny to me, and the scenario is entirely plausible and the reward is much larger than only $25k.

    Also credit cards would be much easier unless you crash the servers. Making change for people takes much longer than running a card and handing a receipt. That being said, taking cash is much less costly than say renting 12 registers/credit card machines for just one day....so that's probably is what's really driving the cash-only sales.
  3. Rempo

    Rempo Advocate (625) Indiana Jan 18, 2010

    Yes. This.
  4. Gritch

    Gritch Aficionado (210) Indiana Dec 26, 2010 Verified

    Apparently not because you just answered me again.

    It's not my fault you don't understand what "not having the means to" means. "Means" means resources. Three Floyds does not have the resources to match up the names to each and every ticket. I'm not sure they would want to deal with the shit storm if they did try to do that. Like I said before they are no airport. You can't seem to grasp that.
  5. Steimie

    Steimie Initiate (0) Michigan Jan 7, 2012

    No, at first you said "I'd guess it's tax free." Now you say it's "far more likely that they pay..." taxes. Which is it?
  6. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Savant (365) Georgia Feb 25, 2010

    Because I only needed one race to make my point. Not to mention, African Americans or any race that grows up here and becomes Americanized don't usually tax evade when they've built a business from the ground up...its just not worth it. The IRS equivalents in our countries aren't as diligent or caring or moral for there to be a real threat from evading taxes. The risk is worth it and when you grow up with that mentality, its hard to change even if you move to this country and start a business in which case you have a much, much greater chance of repercussions for tax evasion becoming a reality.
  7. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Savant (365) Georgia Feb 25, 2010

    Just thought maybe you would actually get specific if I explained it like that. I do get what means/resources are. I was trying to get you to elaborate on the specific mean that they "don't have." As far as I can think of, the only resources they need are money (raise DLD tickets a buck and that's covered), Space (if they don't want it to get more crowded they can hire BAs and even pay them with DL to lower their costs as one guy somewhere before stated that he'd work for beer, I'm sure he's not the only one) and finally manpower (hire it with the money from the buck extra from all tickets). Is there any other mean you wanna specify that I'm missing and that's the reason why the "don't have" the means. Airport is just an example for comparison of an action that everyone that's flown has had to go through...of course they're no airport, airports deal with much more than 6000 people daily.

    I'll agree with you about the last part...I'm not sure they would want to dealt with the shit storm. People are already used to the scalpers, I'm not so sure the avg BA would be ok with the added pain in the ass from trying to stop the ticket resales.
  8. paslaugh

    paslaugh Aficionado (170) Illinois Feb 17, 2012

    You're right, that didn't come out right. I was just trying to highlight the whole cash-only thing, and the fact that there are incentives to under-report earnings from cash-only businesses. Upon re-read it definitely came off as unintentionally abrasive.
  9. paslaugh

    paslaugh Aficionado (170) Illinois Feb 17, 2012

    I still stand by the fact that 3 Floyds doesn't care enough about the resale to do anything about it, and their blog post was just for PR only.

    If they really wanted to crack down on resale they'd restrict the allocation to 1 or 2 bottles, make it available keg/brew-pub only, or have the bottles randomly for sale at the brewpub completely unannounced throughout the year....like the Bell's Black Note release.

    I think excitement about the Dark Lord release is exactly what 3 Floyds wants, its just good business. The resale is a residual side effect that is frowned upon by 3F, but not enough of a bother to really do anything about.
  10. mtrog313

    mtrog313 Savant (350) Michigan Feb 28, 2012 Verified

    Do you really think either of these things have anything to do with pleasing customers and isn't just a straight cash grab.

    You "win" the opportunity to buy a $50 bottle of beer. But basically everyone that bought 2 tickets was likely to "win." Every time you turn around they have more "limited" barrel aged beers available and at $30 a bottle. Baller Stout was so limited before but people could buy up to 4 bottles on Saturday.

    Those price points are way too high for beers that are nowhere near as limited as 3 Floyds makes it seem. If it was really about pleasing the customer their price points would be inline with the rest of the industry and those BA beers would be going for $15-20 and DL variations for around $30. But it's all about hype and 3 Floyds is the master in the craft community.
    grantcty likes this.
  11. Vav

    Vav Advocate (515) Wisconsin Jul 27, 2008

    MarkIntihar likes this.
  12. paslaugh

    paslaugh Aficionado (170) Illinois Feb 17, 2012

    It wasn't so much the "hype" but the inability of a brewer to adequately service it's local market for a distributed beer before expanding to other places. Russian River, Bells, and others seem to have figured out how to do this appropriately.

    It's not exactly comparing apples to apples when using my argument both ways in comparing a non-distributed beer to a distributed beer. I've constructed two separate arguments accordingly.
  13. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

    I was one of the first 50 people in the DLD line. But by the time the event started, i was 150+. It wasnt an issue of not getting there early enough. Trust me. It's more an issue of people in the pub sitting around having more than a couple of taps and rotating IMO. We immediately ordered food and left when we finished eating. Got a glass of beer or two, then let others have a chance at the taps.

    BTW, No one wants to get into the pub for BA Black Sun. They probably had less BA DL because they bottled so much this year, which was hellah cool, but even with a limited supply, they could have rotated the tap lines better (say use more BAL taps, but only pour from certain ones for certain times). That might mean less active taps for the every day beer, but fuck you if you are going into the pub and ordering a jinx proof, right? :)
    xerenthar likes this.
  14. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

  15. Gritch

    Gritch Aficionado (210) Indiana Dec 26, 2010 Verified

    A few friends of mine were in line for the pub at 10:30, and did not get in until after 5. Line cutting was a major issue this year. There were some guys that sat in there for over 5 hours. Not cool on a day like Dark Lord Day.
  16. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

    That's why we ordered food right away and left when we finished eating. It's a shame people's cant just rotate and share the love of BA Dark Lords. We were lucky to get in just before brandy kicked.
  17. paslaugh

    paslaugh Aficionado (170) Illinois Feb 17, 2012

    Nice. Funny that this gem comes in the post directly after bitching about FFF's handling of the BA taps in the brew-pub on DLD. A point I actually agree with you on, btw.
  18. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

    Touche. I see the meta-relationship and hypocrisy. But i'm not telling FFF what to do and whining about their right to do something else. I'm merely offering fervent suggestions. Different from ebay butthurt.
  19. MasterSki

    MasterSki Site Editor (1,085) Ontario (Canada) Dec 25, 2006 Staff Member Verified

    Do you have any idea how expensive fresh cognac barrels are? Virtually every cognac barrel-aged beer has retail pricing close to or higher than $50/750ml.

    I think a lot of people are forgetting that 3 Floyds doesn't have a very extensive barrel program. The majority of their space is dedicated to pumping out Zombie Dust and Gumballhead in sufficient quantities to supply market demands. All of the barrel-aged beers are hand-filled, and they don't benefit from any of the economics of scale that someone like Goose Island does.

    Could they sell the beers a bit cheaper and still make a profit? Sure. However, they are in the business of making money. Besides, if they priced them at $30 you'll just end up with more profiteers buying and reselling as their margin will be that much higher - better that 3 Floyds reinvests the extra $20 into expanding their brewery than line the pockets of scalpers and speculators.
  20. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

  21. rt1976

    rt1976 Aficionado (190) Indiana Apr 29, 2009

    I thought distillers just got rid of them because they couldn't use them twice. Why would they be so expensive if they are basically garbage?
  22. rt1976

    rt1976 Aficionado (190) Indiana Apr 29, 2009

    I thought the brewers utilized the used (throw away) barrels. Not true?
  23. Blanco

    Blanco Advocate (545) Pennsylvania Oct 11, 2008 Verified

    This is a stupid line of reasoning that you should end now. I pay my taxes. Oh and I'm "American" as well as "Hispanic."
    jegross2 likes this.
  24. foobula

    foobula Savant (340) Illinois Dec 14, 2009

    That's my understanding. I deleted my earlier post because I misunderstood what you were saying.

    Perhaps they're expensive because they can be used for other purposes than just brewing? They're oak barrels, right? Maybe that's a pricey wood with a high resale value?
  25. One man's garbage...
  26. mtrog313

    mtrog313 Savant (350) Michigan Feb 28, 2012 Verified

    53 gallon barrels go for around $100-300 online. 3 Floyds may be buying higher quality barrels but I can't imagine it being more than 2-3x more expensive. They also probably get a discounted rate by buying in bulk.

    One gallon is equal to around 5 - 750ml bottles. So one barrel could produce upwards of 250-265 bottles.

    Barrel cost is not a legit justification for their price points.

    Which ones would those be?
  27. Beer Geek Breakfast cognac off the top of my head, and it's very well distributed.
  28. mtrog313

    mtrog313 Savant (350) Michigan Feb 28, 2012 Verified

    There's one, but the base beer for that is more expensive going for $15-18 for a 500ml, and even at $15 for a 250ml it still comes out $5 cheaper. Plus Mikkeller isn't the best example to use in debate about over priced beer

    Also the Black Hole cognac was $15 for 375ml

    Three Floyds can charge whatever they want, especially if people will line up to pay it. Just don't pretend any of it has to do with an attempt to be good to customers.
  29. MasterSki

    MasterSki Site Editor (1,085) Ontario (Canada) Dec 25, 2006 Staff Member Verified

    Cognac barrels are re-used - as such there is a very limited supply and they are highly coveted by other distillers, vineyards, breweries, etc. They are not like bourbon barrels which can only be used once for bourbon, then must be discarded. They are very likely 2-3x more expensive than bourbon barrels, and I hardly think purchasing 3-4 barrels would qualify for any sort of bulk discount. There were only ~1,200 bottles of both cognac variants.

    Pretty much every cognac barrel-aged beer available is made in Europe, because it's expensive to bring over the barrels quickly enough so that they don't dry out. Here's a sampling of prices.
    Beer Geek Brunch Weasel was $15 for 250ml
    Mooi & Machtig was $10 for 180ml
    Little Korkny Cognac was $20 for 375ml
    Konjaks! Stormakstporter is ~$50 for 250ml!

    In any case I made no argument that the pricing was favorable for customers, I merely pointed out that a complaint last year was that there were too few 'winners' of barrel-aged selections. They listened, made more, and had some offerings for sale that didn't rely on the Golden Ticket (BA Alpha Klaus et al). That being said, I don't think what they're charging is terribly out of line with current market pricing. If you don't like the cost of cognac barrel-aged beers, then don't buy them - there's plenty of other stuff out there.

    EDIT: You can buy a spent cognac barrel for $329, plus whatever it costs to ship a 200lb barrel across the Atlantic in a timely fashion.
    chanokokoro and MarkIntihar like this.
  30. TapeDeck

    TapeDeck Savant (250) Illinois Mar 31, 2011

    YES. It IS a matter of "pleasing customers."
    How do I know?
    The people who got "winning tickets" were thrilled.
    The people who did not were bummed.

    An object is worth what someone will pay for it.
    People are happy to pay $50 for a limited bottle of barrel aged Dark Lord.
    Anyone's sentiments of "cash grab" etc are entirely irrelevant.
    You're not obligated to buy. If it costs too much, then pass. If the overall sentiment agrees, the price will come down.

    But the masses in general DO NOT agree.
    People handed over $50 with a smile.
    And honestly, that invalidates any argument against it.
    cadizkyguy and mm2112 like this.
  31. Lansman

    Lansman Advocate (500) Illinois Mar 19, 2011 Verified

    With the understanding that DLD just happened, and interest in this particular area of the US is at the yearly high, I thought it would be interesting to mention that as of this post, of the 2,471 replies on the front page of the Great Lakes BA forum, there are 1,963 replies (79%) related to Three Floyds and/or DLD-related threads.

    With that kind of interest and focus, they must be doing something right.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  32. mm2112

    mm2112 Aficionado (165) Illinois Jun 16, 2010 Verified

    as I read these threads sometimes I wonder if some BA's really love beer or just really love complaining.
    Gritch likes this.
  33. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

    Can't it be both?
    Vav and paslaugh like this.
  34. MasterSki

    MasterSki Site Editor (1,085) Ontario (Canada) Dec 25, 2006 Staff Member Verified

    I like complaining about the excessive complaining in the forums. I'm a meta sort of guy.
    angertoast, mm2112, Vav and 1 other person like this.
  35. MordorMongo

    MordorMongo Initiate (0) Jul 19, 2009

    Without directing it specifically to anyone, I will say without a doubt that anyone who hasn't been to DLD (or likely even FFF) really has no effing clue as to the issues at hand. Most people whom I take to FFF for the first time are in complete shock once they see it that an event with the scope of DLD is even POSSIBLE there. Do not care how many pictures, videos or stories you have heard, it has to be seen to understand.

    So for that, I applaud FFF for how successful it is.
  36. jegross2

    jegross2 Champion (750) Illinois Jan 3, 2010 Verified

    Grass is always greener
  37. theburden

    theburden Savant (275) Indiana Dec 17, 2002 Verified

  38. TMoney2591

    TMoney2591 Poobah (1,055) Illinois Apr 21, 2009

    Our engineers couldn't figure out how to make our dining halls more efficient for the dinnertime rush (sad, but true). We do, however, excel at the Rube-Goldberg competition...
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  39. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Michigan Mar 17, 2010

    Should've gone with a Rose engineer ;)
  40. theburden

    theburden Savant (275) Indiana Dec 17, 2002 Verified

    So post after post about ebay sales, which the blog post didn't even mention, and no replies about a bar listing bottles on their menu at $55 a pop.