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Working on a Summer Saison Recipe

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by dac0152, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. dac0152

    dac0152 Aficionado (180) Texas Jun 19, 2009

    I wanted to check in with you guys about a recipe I'm working on for the summer, and see if I'm doing alright for myself. Hopefully going to brew this as soon as I return from my honeymoon.

    5 Gal Partial Mash

    5# Pale DME
    1# White Wheat Malt
    1# Munich 10L
    .5# Flaked Corn
    .5# Flaked Wheat
    .5 oz Magnum @ 60 min
    .5 oz Sorachi Ace @ 10 min
    .5 oz Sorachi Ace @ 0 min
    .5 oz Bitter Orange Peel @ 0 min
    .5 oz Sweet Orange Peel @ 0 min
    .5 oz Grapefruit Peel @ 0 min
    1# Honey @ 0 min
    WLP565 Saison I Yeast
    Dry Hop 1 oz Amarillo for 5 days

    O.G. Est. 1.066
    F.G. Est. 1.019
    Abv. Est. 6.16%
    IBUs 30

    I may switch to use Wyeast 3711 because I've read really good things about it.

    Anything I'm missing or just advice?
     
  2. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Savant (435) New York Dec 20, 2006

    Your mash might be a little short on diastatic power, not sure where munich 10 ranks in.
     
  3. To raise that diastatic power, would a lb of 6 row be too much?
     
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Champion (750) Pennsylvania Jul 12, 2009

    Really no such thing as too much in this case...just cut back the LME appropriately. But a pound would certainly be enough.
     
  5. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Savant (435) New York Dec 20, 2006

    A lb of 6 row would be fine but I'd use a lb of pilsner before I'd use 6 row just since it would be more stylistically appropriate. Along with the wheat malt that should be sufficient.
     
  6. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Advocate (540) Vermont Mar 10, 2006

    Wheat malt typically has pretty high diastatic power; usually more than American 2 row. I think it will work.
     
  7. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Savant (435) New York Dec 20, 2006

    Even if that's true 2 lbs of non-enzymatic grain to 1 lb of even strongly enzymatic grain is still pushing it. You may be right and it might work just fine, but it's better to be safe and have a little extra power than not enough IMO.
     
  8. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Advocate (540) Vermont Mar 10, 2006

    p.s. For summer, may I suggest a table saison, at about half the ABV you're proposing in your recipe? Very flavorful and much safer to chug on those hot summer days... Try a fresh bottle of Dupont Avril if you can get one. If you're set on following your plan, it should work fine.
     
    NiceFly likes this.
  9. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Advocate (540) Vermont Mar 10, 2006

    The numbers I typically see on malt analysis sheets are roughly: American 2 row - 120; American 6 row - 160; pale wheat - 160. So I think the wheat can convert a lot of adjuncts. Munich 10 is usually around 40 or so, similar to good English pale, just enough to convert itself well.
     
  10. I would definitely cut the gravity if you intend to keep it reasonable ABV-wise. 3711 will eat nearly everything, even with malt extract. It's easy to get 1.005 FG for 3711 saisons, which with a OG of 1.066, would clock in at ~8%.
     
    NiceFly likes this.
  11. Interesting. Sorry get off topic, but here I get Best Malz and Weyermann. I've found info saying that they should be between 76 and 90 lintner. Should I be making any additional considerations for these as my base?
     
  12. NiceFly

    NiceFly Savant (385) Tajikistan Dec 22, 2011

    Ha, first time doing double quotes. so that is how it is done.

    Regarding wheat I have seen DP values anywhere from 150 to 300degL. So even at the low end it would be sufficent to achieve the 40degL needed for 3lbs. But no harm being sure with some pils.

    Regarding Munich 10, if it is Weyerman (the only one I have looked for) I believe they say up to 50%. WTF the other 50% are supposed to be is beyond me. Crystal, 2-row I dont know. I dont know why they do not report degL values. end rant.

    What troubles me about this receipe is the 1.019 FG. I think if you are looking for a 6% drinking beer you may want to lower your OG a bit, especially if you go with 3711. 3711 will get you to 1.005 and likely below as long as you give it some time to finish out.

    sorry for the long post.
     
  13. NiceFly

    NiceFly Savant (385) Tajikistan Dec 22, 2011

    I guess I am a slow typer today:).
     
  14. NiceFly

    NiceFly Savant (385) Tajikistan Dec 22, 2011

    Where are you getting Weyermann degL values?
     
  15. ororke5000

    ororke5000 Aficionado (130) Ohio Dec 16, 2008

    i used Munich recently with a lot of roasted grains and rye malt and got good results. all my numbers where right where i though they where going to be, so if you stick with the Munich you might be fine. however if i where you i would cut the Munich out and use 2# of 2-row/Pils and cut down on the dme to maybe 4#. ive found that if you are going to make the effort to partial mash might as well do as much as you think you can handle, and i dont think a partial mash of 4# is that much. besides i think it will improve the quality of your beer.

    i might omit the grapefruit peel, and add maybe a small hand full of black pepper corns or cardmon pods at 10 mins. i would also up the Amarillo to 2 oz or add an oz of Willamette to the dry hops.

    you wont be disappointed with 3711, its awesome! anyway good luck!
     
  16. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Savant (435) New York Dec 20, 2006

    If you're talking about an all grain recipe where the base malt is going to be something in the range of 70% to 100% of the grain bill then you generally don't have to worry about it, as any modern base malt is going to have the diastatic power to handle that, for the most part. However, if you're talking about a partial mash then you should keep diastatic power in mind, and a good general rule of thumb is to have no more than 50% non-enzymatic grain in your mash. You can, in cases of highly enzymatic base malt, go higher on the ratio of non-enzymatic grain, but if you stick to 50% or more enzymatic malt rule then you'll then you generally don't even have to think about how much power you have, you can just mash away.
     
  17. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Savant (435) New York Dec 20, 2006

    Munich is not the same thing as munich 10L, and rye malt is also highly enzymatic, so this is a different scenario.
     
  18. ororke5000

    ororke5000 Aficionado (130) Ohio Dec 16, 2008

    ahh i missed the 10L after that Munich. anyway i still stand by cutting it all together.
     
  19. Dang it, I'm wrong. Midwest lists Weyermanns Pale WHEAT. Best Malz, also local to me, lists the formula for converting their posted Windisch-Kolbach values to Lintner. I can only assume for now they are damn near the same.
     
  20. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Advocate (540) Vermont Mar 10, 2006

    Good points. I kind of assumed the OP would go with the Dupont strain (WL Saison I), without much thought on my part. 3711 does change things up quite a bit. Personal preference rules, try the commercial beers fermented with the 2 yeasts and decide.

    I usually get my saison yeast from a bottle of Dupont Avril and have had very good results fermenting as low as 68F (1.060 to 1.008), though 77F, as high as I can get in winter, gives better results and a lower gravity. I personally recommend this approach if you pass on the 3711; the Dupont yeast is 4 strains and WY and WL use 1 of them (no doubt the best of the 4, but still not the same). Saison Dupont is the same yeast blend but due to production pressure it is fermented very hot. Avril or Foret gives a more viable and less fickle version of the same yeast.
     
  21. NiceFly

    NiceFly Savant (385) Tajikistan Dec 22, 2011

  22. dac0152

    dac0152 Aficionado (180) Texas Jun 19, 2009

    Okay, let's try this again:

    5 Gal Partial Mash

    3# Pale DME
    1# 2-row Pilsner Malt
    1# White Wheat Malt
    1# Munich 10L
    .5# Flaked Corn
    .5# Flaked Wheat
    .5 oz Magnum @ 60 min
    .5 oz Sorachi Ace @ 10 min
    .5 oz Sorachi Ace @ 0 min
    .5 oz Bitter Orange Peel @ 0 min
    .5 oz Sweet Orange Peel @ 0 min
    .5 oz Grapefruit Peel @ 0 min
    1# Honey @ 0 min
    WLP565 Saison I Yeast or Wyeast 3711
    Dry Hop 1 oz Amarillo for 5 days

    O.G. Est. 1.054
    F.G. Est. 1.005
    Abv. Est. 6.39%
    IBUs 33

    I haven't decided for sure on the yeast yet, as my LHBS has neither as of the moment. I'll be fermenting in the 78 to 80 range. Beersmith tells me that even if it gets down to .001, it will be still be <7%, which I'm fine with. Maybe I shouldn't have said "Summer" Saison, as I'm not really worried about the beer being session-able, more that it contains "summer flavors" of orange, grapefruit, etc. Adding another oz of Amarillo to the dry hop also sounds like it might be a good idea.

    Thanks everyone for your help! I've never done a saison before, so I'm excited.
     
  23. Forgive me for having to ask, but what is the comercial beer that 3711 is based on?

    And while I have temp. de-railed the topic a bit, is there a comercial example of WLP568 "Belgian Saison Blend"? It was the only saison vile in stock at the shop this weekend, so its bubbling away in my fermenter as we speak. Just curious as to what to expect :)

    And to the OP, sounds tasty!
     
  24. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasserie_Thiriez
     
  25. NiceFly

    NiceFly Savant (385) Tajikistan Dec 22, 2011

    Here is anothery handy yeast info link
    http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm
     
  26. Thanks for the info y'all!
     

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