Milds, Bitters, Session IPAs, and Low ABV / Session Beers

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by AlCaponeJunior, May 13, 2013.

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  1. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I have been contemplating posting something very similar to what mnstorm99 posted. I too am of the opinion that the combination of high mashing temperature, a large amount of crystal malt (e.g., 12.5%), and Windsor yeast is a triple ‘whammy’ which will result in a very high FG beer. I think mnstorm99’s suggestion of mashing around 153°F is an excellent idea.

    Cheers!
     
  2. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
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    Hmmm... lot to consider.

    I worked my damn ass off today building that deck (and we're not even finished). It's a second story deck with 20' 4x6 support posts that requires scaffolding and two story ladders, and everything is 2x8's (or heavier). I'm about to pass out from simply opening a second post-work beer. :rolling_eyes:

    What I am thinking so far is to modify my recipe a little. I'm contemplating between all maris otter, or using maris otter / Munich / crystal only and ditching the Vienna. I'm gonna do an all-Vienna SMaSH sometime soon anyway, so I could live without that. I love Munich, which is why I thought it might do well in this beer. Perhaps 5 lbs maris otter, 2 lbs Munich, same crystal malts. Maybe.

    I don't think I'll be adding any sugar, but the information posted about sugars is being noted and logged for future use, great discussion!

    Hops wise I think I like what I've got. IF I was even contemplating any changes, it would be all cascade (in the event that I don't actually have any willamette, but I think I have an unopened pound of it). I've done several beers with serebrianka so if I'm out of willamette, it will be all cascade (numbers adjusted slightly for the slightly higher AA). Remember, I'm a cascade fanatic! :grinning:

    Triple-whammy wise: I see the point made by several posters, striving for a higher FG in three different areas will probably result in overkill. Multiple suggestions to drop the mash temp to 153-154, easily do-able. I liked the idea of Windsor because it's dry and easy to use, but maybe something like London Ale Yeast would be better. I'll consider the yeast, but resolve to dropping the higher mash temperature some.

    At least for now, in my extremely tired and slightly delirious state. I reserve the probability of changing my mind again in the light of fresher, more complete evidence as to why I should do that. Or at least a more sensible, non-delirious state of mind. :rolling_eyes:
     
  3. Hanglow

    Hanglow Pooh-Bah (1,977) Feb 18, 2012 Scotland
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    If in the future you want to make brewers syrup, then this guide is the best I've found
    Code:
    http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert
    Tastes very different from the sugar it's made from.

    I just put the pan of sugar into the oven at the right temperature once it's up to temperature, saves hanging around the stove for two hours. Worked fine for me
     
  4. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,301) Nov 20, 2005 England
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    Just to emphasise-this is not done using table sugar! Unrefined sugar is what it's all about.There is also #4 sugar which is used to great effect in Belvoir Dark Horse Mild.
     
  5. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
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    That's extremely close (hops wise) to my second edit of my recipe. Is that a "hoppy" low ABV beer? Does the fact you're doing a saison and I'm doing a mild change the definition of what's hoppy? What about session IPAs, how much hops is typical for them?

    I did not think I was making it "hoppy," just "somewhat hoppy." I would consider a "session IPA" to be a "hoppy" session beer.

    I realize these questions may not have specific answers and may be very subjective, depending on the brewer. They're kind of rhetorical, because I like the discussions that such questions raise.
     
  6. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
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    There are a lot of great suggestions and discussions, thanks for the great replies!

    Here is my latest thinking on what I might do with this beer:

    5 lbs maris otter
    2 lb munich
    0.5 lb 120 crystal
    0.5 lb 60 crystal
    1 oz roasted barley
    2 oz chocolate malt (350)*

    hops (showing the schedule I'd use if I only have cascade hops available):

    0.5 oz cascade at 60
    1 oz cascade at 10
    1 oz cascade at 3
    1 oz cascade at FO

    mash at 154 for 45 minutes

    use WLP002 English Ale yeast

    targets would be:

    OG 1.040
    SRM 18
    IBU 23
    ABV 3.5%
    FG 1.013

    Anyway, still subject to editing. I still have one beer already purchased to brew ahead of this one, and might do another smash before this one too (I'm dying for a Vienna smash**).

    To clarify, this is what I want from this beer:
    • full mouthfeel
    • plenty of body (not watery)
    • a good maltiness and lots of malt flavor
    • pretty low bitterness, but a fair degree of hops flavor (not enough to clash with the maltiness tho)
    Could I perhaps use more of the non-crystal specialty malts? I don't want to make a session stout, and realistically, on my system even beers with SRM 3 come out with a fair bit of color (I think they all come out darker than what the SRM rating on beersmith says it should be). Thus, the choices I made here. But like I said, I'm not attached to a recipe just because it's "mine." I want the best beer I can make, and don't mind if someone else gets some of the credit! :grinning:

    *I don't know if they have the "pale chocolate malt" that's been discussed on the boards, but I plan to check. Would that be a better choice? If so, how much?

    **Vienna / Cascade with about 4.5 oz of cascade sounds great
     
  7. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,274) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
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    Al, I am not sure how hoppy this beer is gonna be. Its going to have a pretty long primary and may lose a lot of hop profile due to that, and the brett fermentation. I think I may dry hop as well, but I am not quite sure at this point.I would expect 3 oz of hops would make your mild hoppy though.
     
  8. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
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    Thanks man. And thanks for the clarification. I had missed the brett part, that makes a big difference due to fermentation time.
     
  9. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,176) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    Here's what I did. I called it a pale mild, because that was my original inspiration, but where I ended up neither fits my understanding of the pale AK mild (which I've only read about) nor any BJCP category. The FG dipped lower than anticipated, so its a higher ABV (5%) than we often consider for mild. However you try to pigeon hole it, I think it's a refreshing beer that lets pale malt character shine, has good sweet/bitter balance, and a bit of fruity ester. I would brew something like this again. Despite the low finishing gravity, it doesn't seem thin to me. The magic of Golden Naked Oats?

    6 gal, OG 1.044, FG 1.007, ~8 SRM
    8# Maris Otter
    1# Golden Naked Oats.
    Mashed 1.25 qts per lb at 154F for 60 min

    12 oz homemade amber sugar syrup added to runnings.
    120 min boil
    33 IBUs Goldings hops, 60 min addition
    0.67 oz Goldings hops, flameout/whirlpool
    Fermented with WY 1469 at 64 degrees.
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    “The FG dipped lower than anticipated”

    I am really posting this for the wider BA community. I am not surprised that you obtained a lower FG since you used 1469. I brewed my house Bitter Ale last year using 1469 for the first time and I obtained a surprisingly low FG of 1.006; my OG was 1.050 so that means an Apparent Attenuation of 88%. The beer tasted very good but I just was not anticipating that amount of attenuation. Prior batches of that same recipe/process using Windsor would result in a FG of 1.014.

    So, my message to BAs is: do not use 1469 if you desire a beer with a higher FG.

    Cheers!
     
  11. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    Thanks. While in any other thread about sessions and milds I'd shun you for uttering 5%+ :grimacing:, I'll allow it. I'm new to this, but given what I've learned already, 1.007 does seem surprisingly low. I can imagine the low-mid IBUs balancing well with the body the oats contribute and making for quite a nice beer to have a few of, regardless of the relative 'strength'.
     
  12. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,176) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    Jack, did your beer seem thin-bodied? Mine really doesn't, which I have attributed to the oats. It is interesting that I read and heard many good things about this yeast but high apparent attenuation (85%+) never made my radar. As you probably know, Wyeast's description of this reads:

    "YEAST STRAIN: 1469 | West Yorkshire Ale
    This strain produces ales with a full chewy malt flavor and character, but finishes dry, producing famously balanced beers. Expect moderate nutty and stone-fruit esters. Best used for the production of cask-conditioned bitters, ESB and mild ales. Reliably flocculent, producing bright beer without filtration.
    Origin:
    Flocculation: High
    Attenuation: 67-71%
    Temperature Range: 64-72'F (18-22'C)
    Alcohol Tolerance: 9%ABV"
     
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Peter,

    No my beer didn’t taste thin (watery) despite the low FG. The only ingredient that I used to provide some body was ½ lb. of medium English crystal malt. I have a Bitter that is fermenting right now where I used 1469; this go around I used 1 lb. of medium English crystal malt to add a bit more body.

    I was not aware of the Wyeast published data of “Attenuation: 67-71%”. I did read a presentation that Greg Doss gave at NHC 2012 (he analyzed the attenuation of many (all?) of the Wyeast ale strains). 1469 was among the most attenuating of the Wyeast yeast strains. Greg measured 78% for 1469.

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
  14. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    This is similar to a beer that I brewed last year, with essentially the same goals that you have. I think that you will hit your goals, but I do have one suggestion: also dry hop it with 0.5 to 1 ounce of Cascade (maybe move the 10 or 3 min addition to the dry hop stage?). Your nose will thank you!
     
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  15. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
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    Cool recipe!

    One thing I have got down pretty darn well is final ABV, 12 lbs makes about 6.0-6.2% beers on my system pretty consistently. We'll see if this new "calibration point" offers me any new insights into my personal brewing setup. I'm curious if I have beersmith set to where it will be close to spot-on, or if there's some kind of deviation from a linear ABV function at lower OG (running final ABV vs. lbs of fermentable grain used).
     
  16. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
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    Priceless! :grinning:

    I love watching some of the more heated discussions (esp. in other sub-forums here) about "session beers." Grab a beer and some popcorn and get ready for the show! :astonished:
     
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  17. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
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    And yeah, I'll probably toss in an ounce of cascade for dry hop. How could I not?
     
    utahbeerdude likes this.
  18. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    Ditto. I'm rarely a purist, but as a short, thin guy, if I'm in for a session, it's really got to be below 4%. So that's a rule I like to stand behind. And after doing this craft beer thing for a few years I can finally get past drinking IPAs, DIPAs and RIS's almost exclusively.
     
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  19. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (1,998) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
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    AK is not a type of Mild. It's the classic Light Bitter.
     
  20. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,301) Nov 20, 2005 England
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    Could the confusion have arisen through McMullen's AK which at different times has been called a mild and a bitter?
     
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