Using bottle dregs

When making a sour, are you transferring to secondary after two weeks and bulk aging or do you just leave in primary for as long as possible? Im sure each style varies and depends on lambic fruit additions, but what is the general consensus?

 

I used the dregs of a sour in the rye on an experimental beer i was doing and didn't get much if anything out of it. Would recommend a starter.

 

I have heard that brett eats the byproducts from autolysis and makes nice flavors from those unwanted byproducts, however I don't remember where I heard it, maybe someone else can chime in and expand on this.

 

Oh nice, so you're suggest a longer duration in the primary then. Ok cool

 

How big was the batch of beer? I find one or two bottles' worth of dregs usually isn't enough to tackle a 5+ gallon batch unless you are willing to wait a very long time.

 

I think it depends on how sour/funky you want it. Oldsock recommends pitching the yeast and bacteria at the same time for more funk/sour. If you pitch the yeast first, you will get a less/mild funk/sour. Unfortunately, these are relative terms so you really won't know what is right for you until you try it. People have successfully done it both ways though.

How is that the same? The whole point of blending is that it's done after the fact, so you can control the exact flavor profile (often with very precise proportions). When you put them all together before fermentation, you have no idea what you will get, and you will be stuck since there's no way to "unblend" it.

 

Aging in primary gives a more rustic/funky/complex character, for better or worse. It will make for a more lambic-like profile, as that is what most traditional lambic breweries do. Although it isn’t the only difference in the character between lambics and other sours.

A lot of what I’ll be trying to do with Modern Times’ barrel program is induce variation. I’m hoping to use a large variety of barrels, recipes, microbes, processes etc. to generate more fodder for blending and versions of the same beers that work with and without fruit, dry hops, spices and so on. Some will be primary fermented in barrels, others won’t be.

 

What has been your experience with brett in a primary (no lacto or ped bacteria)? I have a brett saison I racked over to secondary pretty early, would leaving it in primary have the same consequences as doing a sour with the other bugs?

 

Brett is really the microbe that takes advantage of the sugars, fatty acids etc. released as brewer's yeast cells die. I actually haven't aged a Sacch/Brett "only" beer in primary for an extended time, but no reason to think it wouldn't be similar. Some of the character development from bottle conditioned mixed-fermented beers is likely from a similar process.

 

Im not sure you will get the same profile as a Lambic if you use dregs from other non-lambic bottles. But I suppose "wild" organisms are the same no matter where they come from...
For authentic Lambic - id look to cultivate local wild yeast; although it can be difficult and unpredictable from what I hear. I recently attempted this a few weeks ago. Made a starter wort, covered it with cheesecloth and let it cool/sit on the porch over night...placed into 1-gal jug. It had a small amount of film on it after 1 1/2 weks...I then pitched the remaining 1/2 gal of a homebrew hoppy (~50IBUs) wheat ale - topped with bottle water - then added dregs from Rayon Vert and a dash of SO-5...it was slow to take off, but nice krausen after a week...I may throw some more Vert or other brett dregs in later today. Its possible that the hops may be battling the wild yeast right now...and winning.

I also recommend any Jolly Pumpkin yeast...they really are little monsters. Also had good luck with Anchorage and Fantome...fwiw

 

Do you agree with some of the comments above about head space in mason jars? I have some dregs saved in a few for future beers.

Would it be better to make a DME starter and fill the head space, coming back to bleed off pressure from time to time? Or could you leave the lid off and cover it with foil? Id like to save these dregs as I really liked the beers I took them from, but I dont want to ruin the bugs in there by over exposing them with head space.


I suppose I dont fully understand if the acetobacter is a by product that will be diluted in the future wort I pitch it in or if it is a bug itself from the environment.

 

That's what I was assuming. I had heard that brett was the yeast that ate up all the autolysis nasties and pitched mango and pineapple esters as a byproduct. I want to say I picked it up from an interview with Yakobson, but I ccan't remember.

 

Brett can also do that with any normal beer, as all the esterification reaction requires is an acid and alcohol, which are present in any sacch fermented beer.

 

Yeah, that's what I was getting after, sorry if my op was a little vague. As the sacc deteriorates brett eats it up and poops out awesome sauce.

 

I pitched the dregs from two "fresh" bottles of jester king sour das uberkind in my 5 gallon barrel. It went nuts off of those I didn't expect much activity so I left it plugged and it carbonated the whole barrel. Took an hour to bleed off. I'd start with those and see how it progresses. My beer was completely finished with primary fermentation.

 

Doesn't Russian River use a centrifuge to take out the wild yeast and then bottle with champagne yeast? People always seem to want to use RR dregs, but I'm pretty sure they don't contribute a whole lot.

 

Plenty of time for collecting dregs when you're LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!

 

Odds are that was the saison yeast they use, really attenuative.

The acetic acid in the starter would be diluted (no issue), but you want to avoid pitching an active Acetobacter colony, so I'd store the dregs with an airlock or sealed in the fridge. If oxygen gets in you’d prefer something besides Acetobacter used it. A small amount of headspace isn't an issue (in a mason jar or carboy), it is the free-flow of air that is really dangerous.

Centrifuging will drop the cell count, but it isn’t sterile filtering or anything. I’ve had good luck with their dregs.

Brett can make esters on its own, that is true, but there are a wide variety of esters that it can’t make without the addition of acids from another source. Lactic acid for example becomes ethyl lactate, a signature fruity aroma in sour beers not present in a Sacch/Brett only beer. Some of the fatty acids released by dying Sacch form really fun esters (ethyl caproate etc.), not present if you separate beer from yeast. The phenolic compounds responsible for “funk” Brett can make some on their own, but a phenolic primary yeast will boost the character (which is partly why 100% Brett beers tend to be less funky).