"A Craft Chemist Making Over Big Beer"

Discussion in 'Beer News' started by TheBeerAlmanac, Jan 29, 2013.

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  1. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Yes, that is true. But it is all realtive. Russian River has more than half of the revenue from the Brewpub.

    You do know that the goldminers didn't make the big money in the gold rushes. It was the guys selling the shovels and supplies - Leland Stanford, and the clothes Levi Straus. The saloon owners and the prostitutes did OK.

    I have thought that the supply chain and other parts of the craft beer business must be doing well also.
     
  2. jtmartino

    jtmartino Initiate (0) Dec 11, 2010 California


    Ever tried beer from AC Golden? Try it, and you won't be implying that the big boys can't make great beer.
     
  3. kexp

    kexp Initiate (0) May 10, 2007 North Carolina

    Shareholders are not interested in this thought pattern.
     
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  4. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    You can be sure the big wigs at AB see the wisdom of a program that makes 4 pack that retail for over $20.00.
     
  5. jfarrlley

    jfarrlley Initiate (0) Feb 16, 2012 Connecticut

    Love how everyone can pile on the macro's without a shred of evidence to back anything up and everyone happily accepts those claims...The minute you make even the slightest claim in favor of a macro...you need to back that claim up like you're publishing to a distinguished journal...
     
  6. salzar

    salzar Initiate (0) Dec 27, 2008 California

  7. 77black_ships

    77black_ships Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2012 Belgium


    Maybe no Craft breweries entered any beers that would qualify for the American lager category?

    A bit like 3F or Cantillon not winning any medals for Belgian-Style category has more to do with them not participating rather than Boon, Oud Beersel & Squatters Pub being better?
     
    Beerandraiderfan likes this.
  8. Peter_Wolfe

    Peter_Wolfe Initiate (0) Jul 5, 2013 Oregon

    Hey all,

    I am a brewing scientist with Anheuser-Busch and I thought I'd chime in here. I work with Rebecca (from the article) on a regular basis when designing brewing trials. She is very knowledgeable about beer and brewing processes; having a degree in chemical engineering certainly doesn't preclude a love for brewing! That article oversimplified things a little with respect to the development of Bud Light Platinum - there was a little more to it that, but it is the nature of a newspaper to make information accessible to a broad audience. The readers at beer advocate are a little more advanced, so if you have any specific questions I'd be happy to try and answer them. And speaking of beer advocate readers, I imagine that ya'll are probably not the target market for a light beer - they're still interesting from a brewing process perspective though (they're more difficult to make than you might think!).

    Also, you might be interested to hear that while the article discusses Bud Light Platinum specifically, the pilot brewery makes a huge variety of beers, constantly. It's used both for recipe development and for process development. We also use it to make a lot of single hop beers to evaluate the aroma of all of the different hop varieties currently in development (breeding programs) in the Pacific Northwest.
     
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Peter, thank you for taking the time to post on BA!

    You stated: “Also, you might be interested to hear that while the article discusses Bud Light Platinum specifically, the pilot brewery makes a huge variety of beers, constantly. It's used both for recipe development and for process development.”

    I fully recognize that the pilot brewery is used to make a variety of beers and alcoholic beverages. The ‘new’ beers and alcoholic beverages that I am cognizant from AB are:

    · Bud Light Platinum

    · Bud Light Lime-a-Rita

    · Bud Light Starw-ber-Rita

    · Wild Blue Blueberry Lager

    · Budweiser Black Crown

    It appears that you joined BA yesterday but I am assuming that you are aware that what is of most interest to Beer Advocates is drinking beer that they think is ‘good’. I fully recognize that the word ‘good’ is subjective but I think you can understand that the majority of BAs do not ‘resonate’ with beverages (I personally refuse to call them beer) like Lime-a Rita and Straw-ber-Rita.

    So, while it is a noble thing that the AB pilot brewery is making various beers it is a bit disheartening to me (and I presume others) that what we see coming out of AB (what is sold at beer stores) are things like Lime-a-Rita, Straw-ber-Rita, Wild Blue, etc.

    I sincerely hope that AB makes a business decision to produce ‘good’ beers vs. what they have been introducing lately.

    Cheers!

    Jack

    P.S. About a month ago I was at my local beer store and they had free samples of Lime-a Rita and Straw-ber-Rita. I will admit that I was reticent at trying them. The beer store owner (who knows that I am a craft beer drinker) goaded me into trying them. I tried both alcoholic beverages and I disliked them both; in particular the Lime-a-Rita had a strong chemical taste. I will take your word for it that Rebecca is capable of brewing ‘good’ beer but the Lime-a-Rita tastes like something a Chemical Engineer would concoct.

    P.S.S. I hope that you will become an active participant on BA. It is always helpful to have input from those in the beer industry.
     
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  10. RBassSFHOPit2ME

    RBassSFHOPit2ME Initiate (0) Mar 1, 2009 California
    Deactivated

    He did state that we as BAs are not his target demographic...
     
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  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    This is what Peter posted: “And speaking of beer advocate readers, I imagine that ya'll are probably not the target market for a light beer - they're still interesting from a brewing process perspective though (they're more difficult to make than you might think!).”

    I posted as a reply to his post that I personally am of the opinion that AB seems to be somewhat focused (from a production perspective) in making alcoholic beverages vs. beer. I personally would think it would be ‘better’ if AB made beer (even beer that is lighter in taste) vs. the –rita stuff they are making now.

    Cheers!
     
  12. PJHealy

    PJHealy Initiate (175) Jun 14, 2012 Ohio

    AB-InBev should be making whatever maximizes value for their shareholders. That might well be the -rita stuff.
     
    SupremePie, Alexmc2, dar482 and 2 others like this.
  13. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    It sounds as if Peter Wolfe agrees. That is, if he is the same AB employee by that name quoted here, in an article about college-level fermentation science majors:
    ...but perhaps there's a level of management between him and Carlos Brito which doesn't agree. That's how giant corporations work. :grinning:

    Still, pre-Prohibition style American lager. Wouldn't that be Classic, an American Pilsener? :wink:
     
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  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I really like the Peter Wolfe that was quoted in that article!

    Below is something I posted in the thread entitled: Pretend you are a BMC executive....

    “A flavorful beer that the BMC breweries could easily make is a Classic American Pilsner. Why not brew this beer for both craft beer drinkers and the mainstream drinkers who are adventurous enough to try a beer that their grandfathers and great-grandfathers drank before prohibition?

    Below is something I posted previously:

    So, believe it or not, before prohibition American breweries made tasty lagers. At that time they did not call them Classic American Pilsners. They were just American lagers.

    A Classic American Pilsner is an easy beer to make: I homebrew them a lot. The BJCP style guidelines provide all the information you need.

    In a nutshell:

    · Grain: 80% 6 row malts, 20% corn

    · Hops:

    - For Bittering: Cluster hops 25-40 IBUs (I prefer 40 IBUs)

    - For Flavor: Medium to high hop flavor from noble hops

    - For Aroma: Medium to high hop aroma from noble hops

    · Lager yeast

    A well-made genuine CAP beer is a very enjoyable beer to drink. Any of the BMC breweries or Regional Breweries (e.g., Genesee, etc.) could very easily make CAP beers. All they need to do is back off the amount of adjunct (corn) they use in their regular AAL beers and up their hopping rates (bittering, flavor and aroma hop additions).”

    Would it be appropriate to state great minds think alike!?!

    Cheers to Peter Wolfe!

    I sure hope that he has the ability to influence things at AB so that they make flavorful beers vs. malt alterative beverages.
     
    Peter_Wolfe likes this.
  15. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    You are 100% right. AB is making alcoholic beverages for drinkers who don't like beer. All the BMC drinkers I know and drink with would no more drink the- rita stuff than I would
     
  16. Peter_Wolfe

    Peter_Wolfe Initiate (0) Jul 5, 2013 Oregon


    The truth is that AB has multiple focuses. Lime-a-rita and the like were not developed to compete with beer; they were developed solely to compete with distilled alcohols and cocktails. They're not beer, and no one at AB is calling them beer. Lots of people like to drink them, though. Likewise, Bud Light Platinum is not targeted at craft beer drinkers who are trying to lose weight, it is targeted at younger folks going out dancing (or something similar) who like beer but in that context don't want something heavy. Some of us (myself included) find that concept somewhat strange - when I go out to the club I still want an IPA. That being said, craft beer drinkers are still the minority of the market and millions of people prefer and ask for light beers.

    Now, with respect to AB making beer, that is and always will be the main focus. AB made something on the order of 100 million barrels of beer and beverages last year (if I recall correctly), and 1 million barrels of that was the Lime-a-rita family. It's actually a little under 1% of our production. As an aside, which some of you may find interesting, to be a successful brand that stays around, a new AB product needs to sell at least a million barrels. This is why Budweiser American Ale (which many craft beer drinkers actually quite liked) didn't stick around. It struggled to consistently hit that mark.

    So, brass tacks: here's what you really want to know, I think. Will AB ever make a hoppier beer that can stand on it's own against a craft ale? I'm assuming we're going to leave Goose Island out of the discussion; even though they're doing quite well at competitions and such people don't consider them to truly be AB beers (which I suppose is fair - even though they are wholly AB owned now most of the recipes were developed before they merged with Anheuser-Busch). The answer to that question was hinted at above - if it sells. Can AB make such a beer? Certainly. Easily. Despite what you may think, we have some of the best technical brewers and equipment on the planet. But will a hoppy beer sell millions of barrels, especially when the target market for it is so vehemently anti-AB? I don't know. We could come out with the best IPA in the world tomorrow and they people who really enjoy such a beer might say, "Meh, it's Anheuser-Busch, I'm not going to touch it".

    So let me ask you this; would you try it if we did? Would you give it a fair shake? I have a personal stake in this; I'm pushing hard for beers with more hop flavor and hop aroma - I get 2 cases of free beer a month and I want hoppier beer :wink:
     
  17. Peter_Wolfe

    Peter_Wolfe Initiate (0) Jul 5, 2013 Oregon




    That is indeed me! I should point out though that in that article I was talking about American Lagers in general, not AB specifically. There is a trend (which you could track solely looking at IBUs) that began in the 1950s and continued until the late 90's where less and less hops were used in American Lagers. German Lagers did not follow the same trend. Bear in mind; this wasn't some business decision on the part of corporate guys - this was the result of consumer surveys and focus groups. People preferred less hoppy beers, apparently. I think people's palates are now shifting back in the other direction, and I'd like to go back to where we were in the early 1900s in terms of hop flavor in lagers.
     
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  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Peter, thanks again for your participation! As I stated previously, it is useful to have participation from beer industry folks on BA.

    Some comments to what you posted:

    “The truth is that AB has multiple focuses. Lime-a-rita and the like were not developed to compete with beer; they were developed solely to compete with distilled alcohols and cocktails. They're not beer, and no one at AB is calling them beer.” While it may be true that nobody at AB is explicitly called the –rita beverages as being “beer” they are indeed marketing them under the banner of Bud Light; the lime-a-rita beer is labeled: Bud Light Lime-a-Rita. The last time I checked, Bud Light is indeed a “beer”.

    You stated: “As an aside, which some of you may find interesting, to be a successful brand that stays around, a new AB product needs to sell at least a million barrels.” Can you please provide to me the volume (how many barrels a year) that AB produces of Ziegenbock beer? Do they truly make over 1 million barrels per year of that beer? Ziegenbock is an example to me of a beer (Amber Lager) that AB makes which is somewhat distinctive from there ‘regular’ beers of Budweiser, Bud Light, Busch, etc. It is amber in color and has a little bit of caramel flavor. It is not a ‘run of the mill’ AAL.

    You discussed AB making a hoppier beer like an IPA. I am not a beer industry person and I am definitely not a beer marketer. I would opine that AB going into the IPA market is not a good idea:

    · The IPA style is very, very much associated with the craft beer industry

    · If AB were to make IPAs to compete with breweries like Stone, Russian River, Firestone Walker, Sierra Nevada, etc. would likely not be viewed favorably with the craft beer drinkers.

    On a related matter, I would be willing to bet that the IPA that Mitch Steele made at the AB brewery in New Hampshire in the 90’s was a very tasty beer.

    If making an IPA is not a good fit for AB, what other hoppier beer could they make that may not be construed as an ‘assault’ on the craft brewing industry? How about a CAP? A CAP is a hoppy lager and this beer has zero association with the craft brewing sector. AB could market this beer as: Your Great Grandfathers beer of choice (or something like that).

    Permit me to answer your questions but within the context of AB making a CAP:

    · “So let me ask you this; would you try it if we did?” Absolutely!

    · “Would you give it a fair shake?” Most definitely!

    Cheers!
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    You state: “There is a trend (which you could track solely looking at IBUs) that began in the 1950s and continued until the late 90's where less and less hops were used in American Lagers.” The trend of using less and less hops started much earlier than the 1950s (unfortunately). There unfortunately has been a consistent trend of American beers getting lighter (lighter in hops, lighter in flavor, etc.) since the end of Prohibition. Below are some values of hops/barrel on ten year marks (via Brewers Almanac):

    · 1935: 0.70 lbs./barrel

    · 1945: 0.43 lbs./barrel

    · 1955: 0.38 lbs./barrel

    · 1965: 0.29 lbs./barrel

    · 1975: 0.21 lbs./barrel

    · 1985: 0.21 lbs./barrel

    · 1994: 0.21 lbs./barrel

    “I think people's palates are now shifting back in the other direction, and I'd like to go back to where we were in the early 1900s in terms of hop flavor in lagers.” I agree wholeheartedly with this statement! Why doesn’t AB make a circa 1900 American Lager (what we call a Classic American Pilsner now)?

    Cheers!
     
    Crusader likes this.
  20. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

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