India Pale Lager (IPL). Thoughts?

Most of the IPL's I've had so far have left me wondering - why go through the trouble (except for marketing purposes) to make a lager just to cover up the lager characteristics with fruity hops which make it taste like an ale? Not that they aren't good beer, they aren't very good lager imo - but I do enjoy them as an IPA.

The one that I thought best captured both ends of the spectrum is that Sam Adams attempt. I've had one good Jack's abby that was both hoppy and lager-y - RIPL effect - but the next time I bought it, it was just like the rest of their IPL's - kind of fruity hop character that covers the nutty/mineral/sulfury aspect of lager yeast and any malt depth.

 

Jacks Abbey - Mass Rising, best IPL I've ever had! Hands down!

 

I love Lagers, I am hit or miss with IPAs. So far I've had SA Double Agent, Hopside Down and GL Silver and Gold. I enjoyed them, but nothing really stood out to me about them and made me say wow. How do I feel about them overall? It's a mixed bag and on one hand they may help to lure some of the hoppy Ale heads into Lager territory and it's an interesting concept. On another, I feel the IPL is kind of/sort of a but gimmicky and I don't want to see this become the next big thing to the point that the market becomes flooded with them, pushing all of the really good but milder Lagers to the wayside.

 

Great lakes IPL was awesome. I hope they keep it around.

 

I liked it a lot, too. It was definitely the maltiest "IPL" I've had, but it was well-executed (like more GL beers). And definitely with a distinct lager character, like with Jack's Abby's IPLs.

 

SA double IPL is good. Hoponious Union is a real treat.

 

I decided to e-mail Victory directly regarding this. And this was their response, "Prima is inspired by German pilsners, but re-imagined with an American twist. You are correct in that it is hoppier, as it certainly is, but at its core are the ingredients found in many true to style German pilsners."

 

If you genuinely want to learn more about the inspirations behind the brewing of Victory Prima Pils feel free to engage in a conversation with Jim Busch (BA Starkbier). Below is something that Jim posted on a thread in the Germany forum:

“Ron Barchet and I did an epic 5 week tour around Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and Czech rep in spring of 91. While we were aware of Jever, the amazing pine/hoppy aromas of Waldhaus Pils did impress greatly. Note by this time we were also well aware of Theo DeGroens own very hoppy Pils from the BBC, but that brew used Clusters in the bittering hops.

Up the road a bit from Waldhaus in and around Karlsruhe was a revolutionary Hausbrauerei called Vogel and they made and still make a stupendous unfiltered kellerpils. I would venture that between the aroma of the Waldhaus and the overall character and drinkability of the Vogel and BBC versions is where our Prima was born.”

In my personal opinion the utilization of whole German and Czech hops adds to the vibrancy of Prima Pils.

Cheers!

P.S. Also:

“Owner Ron Barchet began the evening from the head table presenting the history of Victory’s brewing with a visual overhead slideshow. The brewery’s roots can be traced back to Barchet’s time spent in the Tettnang region working and learning about German beer brewing. In fact, it was a taste of Waldhaus Pils that first led him down the road of exploration and yearning to know more about the process of brewing what became his favorite beer.”

http://newhomebrew.com/blog/2012/04...r-at-victory-brewing-company-in-pennsylvania/

Edit: It also has to be recognized that 1991 was 22 years ago. The overall average hopping level of German Pilsners were higher then. Over the fast few decades the hopping level of German Pilsners has steadily declined.

 

This is from the Jack's Abby blog: "While we are not brewing strictly traditional German beers at Jack’s Abby, they still serve as important inspiration for our own distinctive lagers." Jack's Abby's lagers are, of course, hoppier, but the core ingredients are the same as in German lagers.

See the difference?

 

From Jack’s Abby website:

“Hoponius Union

Hoponius Union harmoniously combines lager yeast fermentation and West Coast IPA hops. Our India style Pale Lager is like a traditional IPA but with a twist - it’s fermented cold and aged for extended periods. A blend of classic American hops creates a huge tropical fruit and citrusy hop aroma. A dry finish accentuates the pleasant bitterness and hop profile. Hoponius Union uses locally sourced ingredients.

OG 15.5 Plato / IBUs 65 / ABV 6.7%
Available Year-round

Jabby Brau

Deep golden in color, this lager balances Pilsner and Munich malt with aromatic American hops. This beer starts hoppy but finishes unexpectedly malty with very low bitterness. Impressively flavorful and drinkable, we dub this beer a “Session Lager.” Jabby Brau uses locally sourced ingredients.

OG 11.5 Plato / IBUs 20 / ABV 4.5%
Available Year-round”

The generous utilization of American hops does not sound like “the core ingredients are the same as in German lagers” to me.

Cheers!

 

Correct. The generous utilization of American hops is the "twist." Kinda like the express declaration about Baltimore Brewing Company's hoppy American pils (and the 52 IBUs) being a direct inspiration for Prima.

 

Here's my exact question from a portion of my e-mail, "It tastes "hoppier" than many pilsners I had in Germany, and wondered what it was modeled after, or if it was your own spin on the style."

And their response is that it IS hoppier, and has an American twist. To quote the response again, "Prima is inspired by German pilsners, but re-imagined with an American twist. You are correct in that it is hoppier, as it certainly is..."

I'm not sure how the answer to that specific question would be more direct. There's even a picture of a huge hop cone on the label.

 

I notice that any time someone brings up IPLs, cranky old-timers come out from under their rock to tell you what real lagers are.

Personally, I thought double agent was as crappy of an attempt as SA's other hoppy beers. The Great Lakes IPL bottle I got was full of diacetyl. I like Jacks Abby. I'm happy Lashes is back in season and now in 6-packs!

 

Rock, hell -- I been on here 10 years trying to enlighten all the hipsters to real beer -- no matter the yeast. Someone has to keep it on the straight and narrow.

But I think most of the discussion here is an attempt to point out marketing BS, not what's better or worse.

 

Instead of communicating with a sales/marketing person you have the option to speak to brewers (e.g., Jim Busch; BA Starkbier). The person at Victory who is replying to your e-mails is a sales/marketing person.

"It tastes "hoppier" than many pilsners I had in Germany, and wondered what it was modeled after, or if it was your own spin on the style." I have no doubt of this since I do not think you were drinking German Pilsners in Germany circa 1991 (or before). Beers do change over time (continuing reduction in hopping levels over the past few decades).In addition, geography plays a role as well. You should read danfue’s reviews on the Germany forum of present day German Pilsners that are brewed in Northern Germany.

There is diversity within the German Pilsner beer style. Most German brewed German Pilsners are not too hoppy today (2013) but they were hoppier in the recent past (1991 and before) and they are still some hoppy versions in Northern Germany today (2013).

Cheers!

 

Jack: Please provide primary source documentation of (non-U.S. "craft" imitation) German pilsners -- northern or southern...from any point between 1991 and 2012 -- that have 52 IBUs. Thanks.

EDIT: in return, I will provide written, primary source documentation of numerous IPLs that have 52+ IBUs.

 

Cigar City's Ben Romano's IPL was pretty awesome. Like drinking liquid hop candy.

 

Jim Busch posted in a past thread: “FWIW a long time ago I know Prima had been tested at 52 IBUs, so back then it was just north of the BJCP limit of 50. Not sure what the latest specs are.”

To assume that present day (2013) Prima Pils has 52 IBUs is not appropriate. When I drink Prima Pils it has a bitterness level of the mid 40s (comparable to Sly Fox which is listed at 44 IBUs & Troegs Sunshine Pils which is listed at 45 IBUs) to my palate.

Cheers!

 

It was their Quality Assurance Manager.