Is all wild yeast still really wild?

@draheim , look at Crooked Stave and what Chad has done with brett. Although he has isolated numerous strains of brettand brews in controlled conditions, his beers do not always come out as planned. While he has experience with brett, it is still a strain that produces unexpected results, even under the best controlled conditions.
@marquis , I don't feel your stolen car argument holds water here. Even if the house strain is the primary fermentor, the bugs that innoculate the wort will ferment the leftover sugars that a straight sacc strain can not, therefore making it "wild".

Edit: I want to piiggy back off the previous post about wild and spontaneous fermentations. From a financial standpoint it is foollish to open your coolship to any tom dick and harry yeast and bacteria out there. If. The wrong bug gets in, you've got vinegar. It is financially in the best interst of the brewer to isolate the bugs that produce the desired results. While the spontaneous fermentation may bring awesome results I don't know if the risk reward ratio is worrth it.

 

Semi OT here: I've taken the tour at Ommegang a couple times, and they have their "open fermenter" in a closed off room. The tour guides, different ones each time, said that the FDA wouldn't allow them to use true open fermentation. So my question is, is there a brewery in the U.S. that does actual open fermentation? Like actually leaving the windows and doors open for whatever natural yeasts are around to do their jobs?

 

The Ale Apothecary in Bend uses true wild yeasts. Sometimes things go slightly wrong - see their recent update on their blog regarding contaimination of pediococcus consuming all of the sugar in their most recent bottling.

http://mountainbrewery.org/

 

i'm trying to find it, but can't remember the periodical i read it in (I thought wsj or NYT). anyways, could have sworn RR sour program has a separate structure with opening windows. it had a picture. i'll keep looking.

Edit: This is at Allagash

 

Yup, sorry about that...I tried my best but I'm foreign...

 

Vinnie Cilurzo has said that brewers yeast is like working with dogs in that the can be made to do what you want. With bugs and critters it is like working with cats, they do what they want.

 

"This beer is very unique and inspired by breweries in the Lambic region of Belgium and, especially, our friends at Cantillon. It is 100% spontaneously fermented, meaning yeast is not added. Once the beer is brewed, it is transferred to a cool-ship or “horny” tank located in our barrel room at the pub. There it sits overnight and collects whatever funky wild yeast and bacteria may be living in the room. The next day it is transferred to oak wine barrels where it ferments wildly and ages for a few months. The end result is a wild, spontaneously fermented, sour, and tasty hand-crafted beer!"

http://russianriverbrewing.com/brews/beatification/

 

I've heard of the Pajottenland, but I've never heard of "the Lambic region of Belgium."

 

Seems to be a dialect difference.

Since many regard Lambics as only being brewed in the Pajottenland (because of the unique airborne yeasts, bacteria, etc.), there are some who use Lambic Region of Belgium as synonymous for Pajottenland.

(Possibly to avoid having to make additional explanatioins or to worry about mis-spelling Pajottenland.... )

EDIT: Similarly some refer to Lambics as coming from the Brussels region of Belgium.

 

What about @mysticbrewery (MA) they have their vinland series which is created by going out and harvesting wild yest outdoors. They then culture it until they find one that behaves to give a wonderful beer but it was 'wild' within the year and I believe taht there is even a award at AGBF just for wild yeast use.

 

Did a spontaneous ferment in my barn last fall with @jester5120 and the beer is pretty much done now and tastes surprisingly nice. Tart, lemon, hay, mild funk. Not nearly as complex as something some commercial "wild" strains will produce. We will continue to age the beer to let evolve.

What we did used truly "wild"yeast/bacteria harvested from my barn/environment. Many people/breweries do this and then smart lab people (wyeast, whitelabs, east coast, yeast bay/many more) are able at isolate yeast/bacteria from these originally "wild" cultures. Brett, lactobacillus, pediococcus, and all other kinds of yeast and bacteria are everywhere. Yeast companies continue to find differnent "wild" strains in Pepsi syrup kegs, sneakers, and all kinds of weird places. These wild strains these labs find/isolate make incredible beer....sour and not.

All I care about is how good/complex/enjoyable the beer is. If it's spontaneously wild and awesome ...great. If it's using a yeast lab strain and awesome ....great.

It's all about the beer for me.

 

Depends on where you draw the line. What is wild? Outdoor spontaneous fermentation only, indoor open fermentation, house yeasts, foeder/barrel yeasts, lab grown Brett/lacto/pedio?

Personally, I think any spontaneously fermented brew deserves the moniker of "wild". Others may feel differently

 

Great article here about coolships, including focus and photos from six different US breweries.

 

Is there domesticated yeast??

 

I'm really envious.

 

good discussion. however, at the end of the day, i think we put way too much stock in worrying about & analyzing subjective vocabulary words. when you really look deep into it, it's kinda like is the pink car really fusia or is that just a really bright, vibrant shade of "pink lemonade"? sometimes i feel like we lose sight of what i think we all agree is the main goal --> are you enjoying what's in your glass?

 

For the microbiology brew-nerds out there, a couple of links to scientific papers describing the yeast and bacteria in coolship fermentations, from Cantillion and an unnamed Northeastern US brewery (whose name probably rhymes with ballagash).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530036
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24748344
Conclusions- despite the mystique of opening the louvers to the night air, the microbes in the fermentation come from the brewery environment (equipment, air, casks, etc) and are remarkably consistent.
Begs the question whether coolships can really be called "wild" if they are brewed with microbes "cultured" on the brewery surfaces for years.

 

Thanks for the references.

However I think it's possible you may be pushing the conclusions a bit futher than the authors of the abstracts.

 

AFAIK, De Garde is 100% spontaneously fermented with whatever drifts in from the cow pastures outside Tillamook.