Designing the perfect German beer homebrewing setup

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Groenebeor, Mar 28, 2016.

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  1. telejunkie

    telejunkie Savant (1,107) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    Since I could jump the beer from a primary corny to a secondary corny, I'm thinking that I would spund in the primary (the corny that has shortened dip tube), then once terminal gravity is reached, jump it over to a secondary for a little cold conditioning...and maybe jump it a third time for serving (?).
     
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  2. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    Wouldn't you want to always spund in the primary, especially to reduce esters and higher alcohols in lagers, or are those things produced mostly during the last half of fermentation?
     
  3. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    If you ferment at lower/'normal' temperatures in the primary, then you shouldn't be producing unwanted esters or higher alcohols. Spunding throughout primary is a tricky business, as too much pressure can cause the yeast to go dormant or get stressed. Spunding also allows you to ferment at higher temps -- which speeds up process [and captures natural CO2 and retains SO2] -- while simultaneously reducing any unwanted esters.
     
    #83 herrburgess, Mar 29, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2016
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    The stage for esters and fusels is set very early.

    Maybe it's just semantics, but it sounds like you're thinking of secondary as the last half of fermentation (i.e. attenuation). But most or all attenuation happens in primary.
     
  5. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    So the total benefits for lager include:

    * Increase S02 capture

    * Faster fermentation before lagering

    * reducing what little esters/higher alcohols there should be in the first place
     
  6. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

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  7. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    And natural CO2 capture
     
  8. HopfenUndMalzGottErhalts

    HopfenUndMalzGottErhalts Zealot (643) Dec 25, 2015 Arizona

    Most of my German style brewings used a single decoction to get a good malt character into the wort, but to keep from spending sooo much time in the brewhouse (heh, my kitchen). A proper dunkel required a double decoction to get what I wanted from the malt.
     
  9. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    No! Didn't you look at the links, or your own picture of wheat beer fermenters? Those are open, as the yeast can lose the CO2. Wheat beer yeasts like open fermenters. Lagers yeast does pretty well open also.

    You can do spunding on some lagers in primary, if you have a yeast that likes those conditions. There is one I know about.

    See vault yeast #12.
    https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-vault
     
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  10. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    I was assuming that spunding benefited lagers far more than ales, and was focusing on that.

    I didn't really have ales on my mind so much, as I saw the benefits were more directly related to lagers and was focusing my reading on that.

    Nice link!
     
    #90 Groenebeor, Mar 30, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  11. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Most of the classic breweries in Franconia do open fermentation of their lagers. It depends on the yeast. One brewpub locally does the high pressure yeast, for quick turn around on lagers.That is their reason.

    @herrburgess might have some thoughts.
     
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  12. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    Yeah I've read about that recently, it's really fascinating all the various techniques brewers use in Franconia. They really do show up most other brewers (in terms of techniques, I've not had the chance to taste but a few) in Deutschland.
     
  13. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Good beer comes from an understanding of fundamental brewing science, execution of those principles, and the artistry of creating unique sensory experiences through creativity and ingenuity.

    As long as the equipment enables you to do that, you're set. I know this doesn't help, just saying world class beer can be made on dilapidated and ugly equipment just as easy as bad beer can be made on world class equipment. Cheers!
     
  14. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    You can make beautiful bookshelves and dining room tables with a ten dollar handsaw.

    Like my dad always said, there's a proper tool for every job.
     
  15. Seacoastbrewer

    Seacoastbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 5, 2012 New Hampshire

    In a similar vein, I used the build here (option 2): http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2011/02/build-spunding-valve.html

    I've used it on several traditional homebrewed German lagers and agree that the SO4 component makes a nice compliment depending on the beer. Also, carbonating using the naturally produced CO2 seems to have a different character than force-carbing. Finer bubbles, though I'm not sure why they would be any different chemically.
     
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  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Andy, did you experience any issues hitting your target carbonation level?

    Cheers!
     
  17. Seacoastbrewer

    Seacoastbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 5, 2012 New Hampshire

    Negative - it was super easy. Looking at the build I linked, you'll see that the hand-dial pressure regular is a cheap-o unit and not great for precise pressure reading. However, used in conjunction with a fine-tune gauge you can get very accurate pressure readings (for my purposes). To get to my desired carbonation I set the regulator much higher than my target (I think ~25 PSI), and I slowly backed off the pressure as it built up until I got where I wanted. It's easier to start with too much pressure and let it go vs letting out too much too early.
     
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  18. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    Makes me think I could "bottle condition" an entire batch in a corny keg
     
  19. Seacoastbrewer

    Seacoastbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 5, 2012 New Hampshire

    Many people do, even without spunding valves. I would just dump my sugar mixture into the keg, and then rack on top of that. Let that carbonate at 60-65F for a week or so.
     
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  20. Groenebeor

    Groenebeor Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2009 California

    Or find a small unused wine barrel, naturally carb it, and just drink it from gravity.
     
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