Founders - Canadian Breakfast Stout 2017

I was the one that said this.

I was in Madison, WI for the KBS release. I attended a KBS event held at a Hy-Vee. There, the rep went through a number of beers, including KBS. After the event was finished (but prior to everyone getting up and leaving), he took questions. I asked about CBS coming out. He said that he could not confirm or deny it, but he went through the process for making CBS. He indicated, as previously mentioned, that it goes

1. KBS base into BBA barrels. for 1 year.
2. KBS comes out, Barrels go to Bliss. Maple goes in for ~ 7 months.
3. Barrels come back from Bliss to founders, and CBS base goes in for 1 year.

He said, hence, it takes nearly 3 years to make CBS, and it has been "released" every 3 years for this reason. 2011, 2014, and now.


Other companies, including Evil Twin, use Bliss Barrels for their beers. Evil twin does it for Michigan Maple Jesus. This is not incongruent with CBS using BBA-KBS-Maple barrels. If Maple barrels themselves were the ONLY limiting factor, Founders could easily just create a contract with Bliss so that they had access to all of bliss's spent BBA Maple barrels, and produce this - albeit limitedly - every year.

I respect that this is considered a "rumor," but seems awfully silly for a rep to say this at an event to the entire crowd if this untrue.

 

If we could post memes I would definitely be posting Fry saying "shut up and take my money!"

 

Can only imagine how much of a pain in the ass this might be to find. I like the KBS, but there's still other stouts I like more. I just fell in love with the Oak-Aged WWS, so I hope if I find CBS I'm not left disappointed.

 

This probably factors in somewhere here. Blis Blast is aged in KBS barrels. It says it right on the back label. So it's not much of a stretch that they would age their syrup in KBS barrels too. Regardless, I think we can all agree that hopefully they don't age a stout in Blis Blast barrels that previously held KBS. Actually, I'd probably try that now that I, "Say it out loud."

 

Best. Name. Ever.

 

Funny you say that, because Founders did exactly that. They had a one off in the taproom called KBS Blast. The spent KBS barrel went to Blis and were used for their Blast hot sauce. The barrel came back and they aged KBS in it. Although not the most inviting beer, I really wish I could have taken some home to cook with!

 

So, since they need time to check it (I volunteer) and bottle it, and considering shipping and filling time at each step, I suppose that the barrels to be used for 2020 CBS already have KBS base in them, so the timer has started and the quantity locked. Hopefully they increased the quantity for 2017 and 2020 batches of CBS.

 

I see it may take 3 years, but there must be internal decisions on why to not make it a yearly release. So 2017 CBS is using 2014 KBS barrels...why not have 2018 CBS using 2015 KBS barrels? It's not like KBS is every 3 years.

 

Yes, good point. They could even make it year-round if it weren't for the maple syrup season, but annual is possible.

 

You are still assuming that what one rep said was true, even though everything ever written has said it goes Bourbon, maple, CBS, no mention of KBS. I'm not doubting the rep said it, just saying everything ever written says the opposite.

 

I cannot seem to find anywhere online anything from anyone saying how it is made. The only thing that I can find is the tag line that is always used, which is that CBS is made using "coffee and imported chocolate, and aged in Bourbon Barrels that most recently contained Maple syrup."

That statement is still true for BBA barrels used for KBS, then went to Maple.

I agree that it should be more explicitly stated, I am just saying that these two are not disjoint - one is essentially a subset of the other.

The reason they do not so it every year is likely a result of the obscenely low quantities that would be produced each year. By doing it every 3rd year, at least in hypotheticals, it would be possible to make maple syrup for 3 years, then BULK age them in spent BBA-KBS barrels all at once, and get an almost 3x amount of what they would if they did it yearly.

People lost their shit when it was bottled in 2011 and only a reported 1,000 cases of 750ml bottles got distributed, of which Michigan got approx. 21%, and no other state received more than 10ish%. That's a very small number of bottles. Stores reported getting part of a case in many instances.

So, that's good motivation to do it every 3 years instead of yearly. Just my 2 cents.

 

Their barrel aging program is exponentially larger than it was in 2011. Stores used to get a case or two of KBS and now they see 7-15 pretty much yearly.

 

The difference is that the limiting agent for KBS is bourbon barrels, whereas with KBS it is Michigan Maple Syrup BBA (or BBA-KBS) barrels. So, increased production doesn't help this issue unless increased supply and demand have both risen for the BBA-Maple syrup (or stock-piling is occuring).

 

If this was true why wouldn't the syrup say aged in bourbon then KBS? It would have to go in that order according to the rep. The absence of the syrup saying anything about KBS is where the issue is, they say for the hot sauce, so it should for the syrup also, but does not. That is what leads me to believe the rep that said it was incorrect.

 

You'd have to figure production has to be exponentially more than previously. I'm basing that off of how much KBS (and other barrel aged beers from Founders) that was available AND the fact they maple syrup barrel age more than just CBS (frootwood, project pam, sweet repute)

 

You're probably already too late.

This is not the first or last time that a sales rep will be wrong. But I am pretty confident that if there is a disconnect between what a sales rep tells you at a release party and what the labeling and official marketing says, the latter is more likely to be correct than the former. It just doesn't make any sense that Blis would be aging their bourbon maple syrup in 3rd use barrels that previously held beer that previously held bourbon. And it makes even less sense that they would do this and not explicitly call it out on the product description:


BLiS Bourbon Barrel Maple Syrup is made from syrup harvested from old growth maple trees. This syrup is then boiled to perfection to bring a rich, thick consistency and a beautiful amber color. We then take the raw maple syrup and age it for just the right amount of time in nearly 20 year old, rustic, Kentucky bourbon barrels, hand picked for just the right aging and bourbon infusion.

 

You won't be. That Oak Aged WWS is excellent. But I had one opportunity to try CBS on tap and it was just as good if not better...in it's own way.

 

@KBS @Beer_Economicus

I'm inclined to agree with the observation that the sales rep was ill informed.

The BLiS website, as noted by @LambicPentameter, says the Syrup is aged in "rustic, Kentucky bourbon barrels." Since I was not famillar with the term "rustic" when applied to bourbon barrles I did a bit of online digging to find this Barrel sourcing company's descriptions of their barrels and the grades of those barrels (with pricing information as well).

http://www.lexingtoncontainercompany.com/Wood-Barrels.html

Notice that the "rustic" barrels are not considered, by the supplier, to be suitable for use by breweries since they have surface cracks in the oak and are also priced lower accordingly.

So relying on what one major source of barrels has to say I currently would favor the interpretation of what Founders has to say as meaning the barrels were originally sourced by BLiS from someone like the Lexington Container Company for use in aging their syrup and then passed on to Founders for use with CBS.

Although similar to your experience @Beer_Economicus, I'm failing to find any of these multiple write ups referred to by @KBS and so think it would be helpful if he is able to provide any links to or other public sources for his information. That would help in eliminating the alternative explanations of the process that have come up in this thread.

 

If you are referring to actual write ups that I mentioned, it is more any article ever written about CBS mentions Bourbon, Maple and then CBS, I have never seen any that ever mention KBS. If anyone can find anything that mentions KBS barrels used in the process of CBS, I would be interested to see it.

Although you point out that the syrup says "rustic" barrels I am thinking that they are not ALL rustic since you point out that they are not suitable for breweries, so CBS, Project Pam, etc. could not be placed in them after the syrup. I would think more likely that when working out a deal, Founders agrees to pay BLiS the difference in price between rustic barrels and brewery capable barrels so they can be passed on after the syrup. I'm sure Founders would not just pay the difference but also a charge for the barrels themselves, likely the decorative price plus difference.

 

First and foremost, that is very helpful. Thank you.

If rustic implies that they are not suitable for use by breweries, that seems like that would imply founders would not want to use them for CBS? Or am I misunderstanding?

Edit: KBS beat me to it.