Mouthfeel

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by hoptualBrew, Mar 2, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Wanted to start a running list of factors that contribute to soft, full, rounded mouthfeel. Not only from a NEIPA standpoint, but of any style in general. Add on as you see fit.

    High protein wort / Use of flaked grain, wheat, oat, chit malt, etc
    Dextrinous wort / High mash temp
    Caramel-type grains for sweetness
    Lower BU:GU ratio
    Higher Cl:SO4 ratio
    Low attenuative yeast / Higher FG
    Lower volumes CO2 carbonation
    Higher glycerol production of yeast
    Higher alcohol content
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

  3. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    In this connection, it's worth noting that Brettanomyces yeasts tend to produce little (no?) glycerol, whereas saison yeasts are known for producing significant amounts. Here's a quote from the Mad Fermentationist blog (Mike Tonsmeire):

    Despite their high attenuation many saison strains do not leave an overly thin beer thanks to high glycerol production (making them a good pairing with Brettanomyces, which does not exhibit strong glycerol production).

    And there's a new post on Scott Janish's blog about brewing beer with wine yeast, making the following observation:

    Another potential benefit from the addition of wine yeast is increased glycerol production, which could theoretically boost the mouthfeel of the beer. For example, Alchemy II [a wine yeast] advertises glycerol production (with grapes) to be at 5-7 g/l, whereas a NEIPA I had tested for glycerol production fermented with WLP007 and came back at just 1.8 g/L.
     
    hoptualBrew likes this.
  4. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    On the mineral point, the argument about levels of chloride and sulfate vs. the ratio of the ions is well known, no need to rehash it here, other than to point out that the absolute amount of chloride might also be a variable some people would want to take into account.

    Also, on minerals, I have read that a modest amount of sodium also enhances a soft, rounded, full mouthfeel. It is also said to enhance sweetness. I can't remember where I've read this, but I believe it is true based on my experience. Actually I think people can push sodium up quite a bit before it starts to create an actual salty taste (as opposed to enhancing other flavors), at least if my goses are any indication.
     
  5. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Adding sugars that the yeast cannot ferment is another one. As is using yeast strains that are bigger ester formers.
     
  6. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah Society

    For. Me carapills, oats, extra roast , like over 1.5 lbs per item per 5 gallon batch, mash temps over 156, hard maple and oak 4 oz and more per 5 gallon batch for 1 month or more, using hop pellets in the bottleing bucket and other stuff I can't recall right now.
     
  7. wasatchback

    wasatchback Maven (1,460) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Trader

    PH
    Pitch Rate
    NA
    Ferm temp
    Step Mashing
    Foam and it’s stability
    Natural Carbonation vs. Forced

    Also the saison yeast known for its glycerol production, 3711, is also diastatecus. So be somewhat aware.

    There are some interesting studies out there about heat shocking yeast to increase its glycerol production.
     
    hopfenunmaltz likes this.
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Can you share more of your thoughts on this topic?

    I have heard people opine that natural carbonation (e.g., bottle conditioning) will yield smaller bubbles as compared to forced carbonation. Have you seen any studies which quantified this? Is there a law of physics that would explain this phenomenon (assuming it exists)?

    I will confess that my homebrewed (bottle conditioned) beers seem to have better qualities as compared to commercial beers but I would like to learn if their is science behind this.

    Cheers!

    @honkey
     
  9. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,125) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Yeast attenuation & selection
    Short mash (just 20-30 minutes)
    Rye
     
    GormBrewhouse likes this.
  10. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,125) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I'm pretty sure that's been balonified, but I'm not sure where. People can develop all sorts of theories to support their beliefs that until tested, who knows.
     
  11. ECCS

    ECCS Zealot (731) Oct 28, 2015 Illinois

    So if I’ve read the previous 9 posts correctly, basically everything contributes to mouthfeel haha
     
    NorCalKid and GormBrewhouse like this.
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    That article was a 'summary' of many technical articles on the topic of mouthfeel; as in the title " - A REVIEW".

    Are you making a comment upon the many technical articles that were discussed/referenced in that specific paper?

    Cheers!
     
  13. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,125) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    No, I didn't even look at the paper.
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    My apologies. I was not reading carefully.

    Yeah, if you can provide some information (e.g., links) on the natural carbonation vs. forced carbonation topic I would appreciate reading it.

    I am not well informed on the science here but based upon what I learned in college physics (which was quite some time ago) I am inclined to think that the physics of carbonation should yield the same size bubbles regardless of method but I would like to learn more.

    Cheers!

    Edit: There is some discussion in the Mouthfeel paper I linked concerning carbonation and “fine foam” vs. “coarse foam”:

    “In preference tests, panelists preferred beer with a fine foam and described this beer as being “well balanced”. Alternatively, beer having a coarse foam was described as having a weak carbonation and low bitterness and was “too soft and dull”.

    The above taste tests were based upon varying the methods of pour.

    I would suspect that if natural carbonation yielded a “fine foam” and forced carbonation yielded a “coarse foam” this could be a factor as well?
     
    #14 JackHorzempa, Mar 3, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  15. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Hell, I e. Had big medium and small bubbles in my bottle conditioned brews.. I suppose more or less bubbles ay contribute to mouth feel,,,,, but I contribute excess bubbles more to belching and farting and a needed pause in beer consumption due to belly bloat.
     
    LuskusDelph and JackHorzempa like this.
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Are those coarse bubbles or fine bubbles!?!:wink:

    Cheers!
     
    GormBrewhouse likes this.
  17. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah Society

    One
    Maybe coarse, maybe fine. Perhaps we,ll never know
     
    LuskusDelph and JackHorzempa like this.
  18. wasatchback

    wasatchback Maven (1,460) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Trader

    I think it has less to do with the size of the bubbles vs how the bubbles are created.

    Noonan specifically speaks of krausening beer and how it “entrains CO2 in the beer, and gives fuller, mellower flavors”.
     
  19. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Foam is more than CO2. A bubble of CO2 in foam is the gas and envelope bubble that is composed of proteins (wheat is know to aid head formation), things like hop oils (those dry hopped beers can have great foam), and glycerol from the yeast fermenting. Spunding can give a really nice foam, or Krausening too.
     
  20. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    At high levels diacetyl can contribute a full, ‘oily’ mouthful. Probably not the best way to skin that cat, but worth noting.
    Also, I’m sure there is ‘perceived’ mouthfeel that certain flavors can contribute. I’ve noticed it in beers with vanilla added fwiw.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.