German brewery claims trademark on Norse gods, threatens to sue Scandinavian breweries over usage

Discussion in 'Beer News' started by Snowcrash000, Jun 29, 2018.

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  1. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    True no legal document yet. They decided to be courteous and try to avoid legal action.

    They say they talked to lawyers, why do you think they haven't?

    BTW you don't need a legal department to hire a lawyer on an hourly basis.
     
    LuskusDelph likes this.
  2. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,017) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    This is what you call "courteous"?

    "In this respect, please limit your assortment, take the bottles with the corresponding labels from your shop (online and offline) and also call the back from and all sales partners. We know that it takes time to make this happen. That's why we give you a deadline of three months, until September 6, 2018, after which, however, none of the labels will be allowed to appear in stores and you will no longer be permitted to advertise them. In addition, we expect you to give us written confirmation that you will respect our trademarks and will no longer sell beer in violation of these trademarks, especially if this happens as described above. We expect you to return this written declaration by June 30, 2018 at the latest. We really want to settle the matter without much fuss and hope very much that you will not force us to involve lawyers and in the worst case even courts."

    Keep in mind that they are saying this to a brewery that has had these names in use three times longer than they have.
     
  3. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Is that a C&D letter? No. In Trademark issues no such preliminaries are needed before sending out a C&D letter, so such advanced notification is indeed considered to be a courtesy and an attempt to avoid legal action of any kind, including a C&D letter.

    Prior use may or may not make a difference in the outcome, but since Wacken was granted the Trademarks in the first place, they own them. If the EU has the equivalent of common law usage in the US the other breweries may be able to make a case to keep their use, but will only be able to use it in their own limited existing territory.

    Keep in mind that Wacken owns the rights to those names as used in conjunction with beer and those rights were presumably granted by the legally authorized EU trademark office.
     
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  4. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,017) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I get what you guys are saying, but keep in mind that there are dozens of breweries out there that have released hundreds of beers with names related to Norse mythology years before their brewery even existed Are they really going to sue every one of those now even though those all clearly have first use on their side? This is utterly preposterous.

    This not about whether you can or cannot trademark the names of Norse gods. This is about whether you can, or rather "should" threaten to sue breweries over freshly trademarked terms when these breweries have used those names for many years ahead of you and then offer them the "courtesy" of continuing to use them if they pay you for the privilege.

    This is blatant trademark trolling and extortion (morally, not legally) and utterly despicable shitbag behaviour. Funny how everyone in here gets up in arms over frivolous lawsuits when American breweries do it, but when a European one does it they are well within their rights?

    These Wacken clowns aren't even passionate about beer, they founded their whole brewery on gimmicky branding and produce shitty beer that most people in Germany have never heard of and is hardly available anywhere except for the Wacken festival.
     
  5. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Not everyone. :sunglasses:

    As for myself, I'd be raising the exact same issues and points (as I have in the past) over US based Trademark issues and potential lawsuits.
     
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  6. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,058) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I know nothing about this case except for what you have posted (which is not enough for me to form an opinion on).

    I’m specifically responding to the idea of what can be trademarked - which has been a component of this thread. Someone stating that these things can’t be trademarked is clearly missing the point. These things were trademarked.

    I am no expert, but I would imagine that the genuine issue here is how much weight the trademarks carry in this specific case - and the components of that are probably: prior use, distribution footprint, brand strength, and international law... not cultural appropriation, public domain, and beer passion.
     
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  7. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,017) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I guess we are in agreement then. Good thing that most of those other breweries should clearly have prior use, distribution footprint and brand strength on their side.
     
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  8. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,058) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    We are in agreement that we think those items will matter. I really don't have a position on the Wacken brewers' behavior. Cheers.
     
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  9. VABA

    VABA Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,131) Aug 8, 2015 Virginia
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Just curious, you say they are not public domain, but aren't the original religious text public domain? Thus, making the Gods names public domain? Or, do they also want to attack the original religious text? Good luck with that!
     
  10. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,058) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    You can trademark something in the public domain. A trademark is not the same thing as a copyright. Break the words down. A copy-right allows the right to reproduce a work. A trade-mark is an item used to distinguish a brand from other products/companies. Someone can write their own unique story about Loki and have that story copyrighted. Someone can trademark the business entity Loki Brewing Company. These two people will probably not get into circumstances that would cause them to enter into a legal battle with each other.
     
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  11. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,058) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I forgot to respond to this. I didn't mean to mislead anybody. I didn't mean to suggest that characters can't be in the public domain. I was really trying to distinguish the difference between copyright and trademark, and how public domain fits into that. A "work" that's in the public domain is not copyrighted. Please add this thought to the beginning of my previous post.
     
    #31 zid, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  12. IPAExpert69

    IPAExpert69 Savant (1,065) Aug 2, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I said this exact statement about Stone suing Miller for Keystone and got CRUSHED. Still think I'm 100% correct on that:sunglasses:
     
  13. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,017) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Well, as it turns out, the whole point of this is to extort royalties out of the breweries who are already using these names, which is even worse though. Nothing to do with publicity, they've achieved quite the opposite there.
     
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  14. VABA

    VABA Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,131) Aug 8, 2015 Virginia
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I stand corrected!

    Thanks for making things crystal clear!
     
    zid likes this.
  15. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    There are only two things I'd add to the comments by @zid based on things in the US which are probably very simlar to the way things work in the EU.

    The first is that copyrights are usually time limited and so need to be renewed periodically or they lapse and the material goes into the public domain for anyone to use.

    The second is that trademarks don't lapse so long as they are actively used and defended when/if someone else knowingly or unknowingly starts to use them. A trademark that is not defended is lost.
     
    #35 drtth, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  16. Tamarack

    Tamarack Initiate (0) Sep 22, 2016 Massachusetts

    If they were really trying to sell the whole "They are Germanic, not Nordic!" angle then their beers would be called Wodan, Tiwaz, Donar, etc. This is blatant cashing in on the Norse mythology/Metal community tie-in and threatening all these REAL breweries is going to bite them in the ass
     
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  17. Tamarack

    Tamarack Initiate (0) Sep 22, 2016 Massachusetts

    Their Mjolnir beer is literally called a Nordic Lager.....

    This argument is paper-thin. What a genuinely stupid business decision. They ought to be kicking themselves.
     
  18. Squire

    Squire Grand Pooh-Bah (4,081) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing, I hope the judge is a beer drinker.
     
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  19. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,017) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Wacken's latest statement on this:



    "TOGETHER
    We are meanwhile in close contact with the Nordic breweries we had written to, and have offered them to keep their beer names. As soon as corresponding agreements will have been concluded, the concerned microbreweries will automatically fall under our own EU-wide trademark protection. This is the only way for them to also obtain legal security against large industrial breweries or license traders who have no sentimental attachment to Norse mythology.
    We can fully understand the intense level of emotionality reached in this discussion. We are very sorry if we have offended any religious feelings. Trademark registrations are not about having the Gods „patented“ or having them „taken away“ from someone. Names of gods have been trademarked for a very long time. There are hundreds of Norse mythology-themed registered brands, for example „Thor“ and „Odin“, registered by a large Danish brewery. The latter would certainly not allow any other brewer to use the names of the highest Norse gods.
    We are seeking for a closer cooperation with all craft brewers who, just like us, are dedicating their work to Norse mythology. Our common goal is to recount and spread the prolific sagas and myths of the Norse pantheon through our beers. Talks for a friendly collaboration are already in progress. Some ideas such as collaboration brews, joint beer festivals and charity campaigns are currently being discussed.
    We want to march side by side,
    for beer diversity and the fabulous Norse mythology!"

    The big question here is what these "corresponding agreements" will involve.
     
    drtth likes this.
  20. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Just as an FYI, part of the problem is that the use and/or heritage of ancient Norse names, etc. didn't get changed or constrained by modern day political borders. Wacken is in Northern Germany where there was a strong Norse influence that pre-dates the formation modern Germany and a political border between Denmark and Germany. Names such as Wodan, or Wotan were used in a different region of what is now part of Germany.
     
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