Judging the qualities of a brewer

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by HopsAreDaMan, Mar 17, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    You really should be explaining all that to the pros who told us these things. (And to the other folks with brewing experience who share the same opinions.)

    BTW if you are an Industry professional shouldn't you be getting a banner activated on your avatar?
     
  2. Squire

    Squire Grand Pooh-Bah (4,081) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    That's what I've been doing for a lot of years now, or asking for their Golden Ale if they don't brew lagers. The simple beers are often the most difficult to pull off technically so how well they do that is my measure of what they can do with other styles.
     
    BJC, bl00 and HopsAreDaMan like this.
  3. rightcoast7

    rightcoast7 Maven (1,294) Apr 2, 2011 Maine
    Trader

    Were any of the brewers who told you this known for their world class IPAs, stouts, lambic, abbey, etc styles? Because I also think there’s a jealousy component at play. As in, “sure, Tree House gets all the hype, but I’m really just as good. I mean, can they even brew a decent Pilsner?” This sentiment coming from brewers doesn’t make it any less wrong.

    A lot of chefs will tell you that you aren’t a real chef unless you’ve mastered the French mother sauces, but that doesn’t mean you can’t still make world class tacos that would knock the socks off the tacos made by a classically trained French chef. If I’m in the mood for tacos, guess who’s the better chef?

    The whole idea just smacks of old world snobbery and a bit of sour grapes.
     
    nw2571, Roguer and ElmerLovejoy like this.
  4. islay

    islay Savant (1,187) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    If a style is capable of covering up or distracting from flaws, that's a big plus for the style. If a style allows flaws to shine through, that's a big minus. I used to say that one of the great things about imperial stouts is that even the bad ones tend to be good because the sheer mass of flavor tends to cover up any problems. I actually don't say that much anymore, since some of the sickly sweet, flavoring-adjunct-laden examples can be very bad indeed, but what's making some of those beers so bad is flavors not historically associated with beer as well as intentionally (not inadvertently) low attenuation.

    We should indeed keep in mind that many breweries rarely brew lagers. If you're going to employ this sort of standard, those breweries probably are better judged by a difficult-to-execute ale style (golden ale? bitter?).

    I do think brewing flawless beer is a major test of brewer technical skill, but, especially in craft beer, people tend to respond more to the presence of welcome flavors (based on their own palate preferences) than the absence of offensive flavors, and that's okay. It's not good enough merely to be perfect (i.e., completing without error); you need to give people an extra pop of flavor that they'll actively enjoy. I think people should keep in mind that technical perfection is a way (but not the only way) to judge brewer skill, but hedonic enjoyment is ultimately the best way to judge the beer itself, outside of a BJCP-type competitive setting. If you don't mind, heck maybe even enjoy, a little bit of perceptible diacetyl, then, even if the style guidelines forbid it, don't let that stop you from loving a beer. On the flip side, many a technically sound, flawlessly executed beer is bland and boring (Budweiser, anyone?).

    "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without." - Confucius
     
  5. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

  6. meefmoff

    meefmoff Pooh-Bah (1,848) Jul 6, 2014 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I do understand what you're saying a bit, especially regarding the notion that it's silly (and indeed snobby) to criticize an expert taco maker for not also being an expert at other things. But I'd offer another cooking example that comes without the historical importance/snobbery angle and is more comparable to the brewing example.

    I watch a lot of cooking shows, and rather than something fancy like mother sauces, the equivalent version of judging a brewer by their pilsner seems to be the ability to properly fry an egg. Nothing fancy, just a very basic dish that deceptively takes a lot of skill to do perfectly and is widely relevant to the repertoire of most chefs.

    A related point is that cooking is more multi-faceted than brewing, so I don't think it's actually analagous to compare the taco guy to a french chef and his ability to make mother sauces. I think the equivalent comparison would be whether the taco guy can make a tortilla that tastes good without anything else on it. Or whether a pizza guy can make dough that you'd be happy to eat without the cheese and sauce on it.
     
    PatrickCT, beergoot, bl00 and 2 others like this.
  7. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    I think that a well made Lager is a thing of beauty, I don’t know a brew pub here that doesn’t offer one up in their rotation. You need to offer up lighter styles to appeal to the many, even brew pubs I’ve been to that are famous for their ipas and such brew up a nice Pils. I think it shows off a brewers skills, but it’s also time consuming and probably costs more for not a whole lot of glory.
     
  8. HopsAreDaMan

    HopsAreDaMan Initiate (0) Jul 28, 2015 Missouri
    Deactivated

    Wow, this was more responses than I was expecting, let alone hoping for. Thank you all for your responses.

    years ago my buddy and I brewed a handful of batches, and we got lots of compliment s. We never brewed a lager, though, let alone apilsner. recently I heard someone I consider to be experienced in craft beer mention what I posted i n my OP. And got me wondering how much I value there was to that approach.
    I certainly appreciate the thoughts of those that think it is not the only, or best approach. :slight_smile:

    However, I think there is credibility to the most frequent reason given here: with a pilsner, being that it is so simple, it is difficult to hide any flaws (not impossible). SO, if you can brew a good pilsner, it is a good indicator that you understand the fundamentals of brewing .

    I have limited typing ability right now. I apologize in advance for any typos or short responses. :grin:
     
  9. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    Along the same line, aals catch a lot of flack, but it takes some serious skills and very expensive equipment to make them so marvelously consistent. I’m sure it’s not so easy and I’d assume a catastrophic event in the volume they brew if a batch goes south for whatever reason, or not even completely off just a small miss. With these light lagers there’s not much room for error.
     
    bl00, Squire, JackHorzempa and 2 others like this.
  10. rightcoast7

    rightcoast7 Maven (1,294) Apr 2, 2011 Maine
    Trader

    This article quotes brewers talking about what a great style the Pilsner is and how it can be difficult to brew. No one suggested that the failure to be able to brew a great one means you aren’t a good brewer or don’t brew other styles exceptionally well. And that is sort of what you and others are suggesting when you say that a pilsner is the only way to truly test a brewer’s skill. The implication is that any brewer can make an excellent IPA or stout or whatever, but only the great ones can brew great Pilsner. That’s what I’m calling out as nonsense. If everyone could brew ale styles exceptionally well, we’d certainly see them doing it, particularly since that’s where most of the money is in brewing today.

    Much of what passes for conventional wisdom is parroted for decades by professionals in a particular industry without it ever being rigorously analyzed or challenged. Much of what passes for conventional wisdom also turns out to be wrong.

    I would suggest we’d be better served by evaluating brewers on the styles they most enjoy brewing and most excel at, not judging them harshly for failing to do something they may not even have a particular interest in just because the old guard considers it the epitome of the art form.

    I can appreciate this point and agree there isn’t a perfect analogy from cooking to brewing, but brewing is pretty multifaceted as well. A Pilsner is as different from an IPA as a taco is from ratatouille IMO. I just think we are wasting our time judging brewers of modern American ale styles by how well they brew an old school European style. Jack’s Abby, for example, does a great job with crisp clean lagers, but their IPLs and stouts are pretty average. Does that make them more talented brewers just because of the style they love and elected to focus on? I would suggest that the reason more brewers aren’t better at brewing pilsners has more to do with them not spending a lot of time trying to perfect their Pilsner, rather than them just not being good brewers in general.
     
    ElmerLovejoy, nc41 and HopsAreDaMan like this.
  11. HopsAreDaMan

    HopsAreDaMan Initiate (0) Jul 28, 2015 Missouri
    Deactivated

    Another assumption I am making in my OP is that the brewer in question is fairly new to the public, and thus doesn't really have a reputation. So, Cantillion? We already know they are quality brewers.:grin:
     
  12. HopsAreDaMan

    HopsAreDaMan Initiate (0) Jul 28, 2015 Missouri
    Deactivated

    Agreed. I think the absence of a pilsner in their portfolio is not an indicator that they are NOT good brewers. Just that if they can brew a good pilsner, they know some (perhaps many) of the fundamentals.

    And believe me, I am with you on the whole skepticism of the so-called wisdo m of the 'old guard'.:slight_smile:
     
    rightcoast7 likes this.
  13. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    I don’t brew, I don’t understand brewing. But... the beers I get from breweries that are Lager only kinda places include Red Oak and Old Mecklenburg. The brewers are classically trained with many years experience brewing in Germany before picking up here in NC. It’s what they were taught and now teach so it’s really what these guys know, and not being able to brew an outstanding Pils might simply come down to training and experience. No doubt they could crush an ipa is they chose to do so.
     
  14. HopsAreDaMan

    HopsAreDaMan Initiate (0) Jul 28, 2015 Missouri
    Deactivated

    Another reason I find this interesting is from a n education standpoint. Perhaps I am restating here: Although understanding fundamentals (and demonstrating knowledge of them) isn't everything, it is a really good indicator of competence in that 'field' IMJ.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    agree that it's nice -- if not necessarily essential -- to have some kind of baseline. otherwise consumers are frequently at the mercy of things like hype, rarity, or (worst of all) review sites like Untappd. how many times have I read there about a world-class Pilsner, "eh...it's a Pilsner..."
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Dale, I would suggest that homebrewing an AAL is indeed a challenging task. I have never brewed a contemporary AAL beer but I do homebrew a Classic American Pilsner (20% adjunct - corn/rice) every year and attention to detail and patience is indeed needed here.

    In all fairness I exhibit attention to detail when brewing my other beers (e.g., ales) but there are just more steps in producing a beer such as a CAP so more places for things to potentially 'go wrong'.

    Cheers!
     
  17. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    Yep, no one stands in line for Pils release.
     
    BBThunderbolt and herrburgess like this.
  18. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    Time is money, so it takes more time and space so it’s not a cheap beer to make even without dumping in 5 lbs of hops. I think more importantly even a great Pils flies under the radar, so your not going to have lines at your doors, or lines for special release cans. You won’t be famous for brewing great lagers , but you will have a successful business if your doing it right. Old Meck and Red Oak do it right and they are busy, so people who vote it’s their money are voting positively. I didn’t think Red Oak would be all that popular to be honest and boy was I wrong.
     
  19. rightcoast7

    rightcoast7 Maven (1,294) Apr 2, 2011 Maine
    Trader

    Probably fair to assume they could brew a decent IPA, but it’s a stretch to assume they’d “crush” it. Plenty of lager-centric brewers have also brewed IPAs (think Sam Adams or Jacks Abby), but I doubt anyone thinks those breweries’ attempts at IPA are the epitome of the style. Which is sort of my point. Doing anything really well takes skill and a lot of practice. Putting lager brewers on some sort of pedestal and declaring them better than brewers who focus on other styles is silly.
     
    ElmerLovejoy and HopsAreDaMan like this.
  20. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Grand Pooh-Bah (3,862) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    @rightcoast7, it seems to me that where you and the pro-pilsner-as-metric folks are talking past eachother is that you are hearing them say "if a brewer doesn't/can't make a good pilsner then they are a bad brewer". But I think what they are really trying to say is "if you find yourself in an unknown brewery, trying to evaluate if it's worth staying around for a few or moving on, giving their pilsner (or other light and simply flavored style) a try will tell you a lot about the technical skill of the brewers".

    I personally tend to ask the bartender what they are known for or what the brewers' favorite beer is. I also just tend to go with what looks interesting to me, in my mind a good brewer is someone who can consistently produce balanced beers in whatever style. If I try a beer you brewed in a conventional style and it is downright bad I am not likely to explore more or return because I can tell that, at the very least, you don't have enough pride to dump a failed batch and instead will hope to just pass it off to the consumer.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.