Rest of Deutschland Bier bought and drunk

Discussion in 'Germany' started by seanyfo, Sep 23, 2013.

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  1. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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  2. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    DO water means that the dissolved O2 is stripped out.
     
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  3. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    long and short of stone berlin: greg didnt listen.
     
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  4. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    maybe people think those of us who've been there, consumed 1000s of beers, and know the culture are just trying to be difficult or picky. dunno. I know a few such people. when it comes down to it, you'd be wise to at least trust/listen to those who know what they're talking about. alas...
     
  5. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    But in the "US Craft Brewing Mythology", neither did Fritz Maytag, Jack McAuliffe, Ken Grossman, Bill Newman, Matthew Reich or Jim Koch, et. al. - of course, only two of whom are still in the business (and, not listed, dozens more who failed even quicker :wink:).

    And of those two left, one could say their subsequent and long-lived success is attributable to eventually "listening" - to customers, distributors, marketers, professionally-trained brewers, etc.

    Understandable that Greg (marketer of "Arrogant Bastard") Koch would be attracted to the 'rebel/disruptor" image - "Hey, it worked last time in San Diego, USA!" - even if he did once hire an Anhueser-Busch brewer. :grin:
     
    #905 jesskidden, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  6. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    I get that. Doesn't change the fact that not listening was his downfall (this time). I'm actually looking forward to seeing the movie and noting the specific points where reality is truly setting in for him. There are bound to be quite a few of them, and if the documentary filmmaker is any good, he will have built the "story" around them
     
  7. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    Oh, no doubt but as they say, "History is written by the victors...".

    OTOH, "News" (and "internet chatter") is often about the losers, but soon forgotten or reduced to anecdotal footnotes. I guess it's up to Brewdog now to continue - or finish - the story.

    Yup, and likely the filmmaker wound up with a better story than the more predictable "dog bites man" tale he had of "US craft brewer builds a brewery in Germany"....
     
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  8. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    From the clips Ive seen and interviews with the filmmaker Ive read, he (like most everyone else) realized from the beginning what types of (massively frustrating) hurdles awaited the project. So I'm confident he not only "got," but was telling that story from the beginning in many ways.
     
  9. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    Yeah, who expects "The Beer Jesus of America" to build an "Edsel"?

    Crucified? Sure, but without a follow-up resurrection.
     
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  10. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    I swear to God, I believe that "disruptive" model might have worked in any number of different European countries. And in many ways I can see why you might think it would work in Berlin, since it is very different from the rest of Germany. But it's still German. And -- as Ive said many many times -- Germans are weird and Germany is a weird, weird market.
     
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  11. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    I think of it as Greg being kinda like the Sid Vicious of punk, who is a True Believer until the end. Long past the point when Johnny Rotten (and most of the fans...whom Rotten had told they were being cheated) knew the whole gag had run its course.
     
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  12. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,141) Nov 3, 2005 California

    I agree here. From what I have read there are numerous reasons for the fail (many of them even predictable outcomes that were ignored) but the main learning point HAS TO BE that it was just too big. Knowing that he wanted to serve all of Europe from this location it was STILL TOO BIG. 200,000 Hectoliters, basically half the size of the brewery in San Diego, was completely over-dimensionalized. Anyone know how much beer they were actually brewing/selling in Europe? Guessing maybe 1/4 of capacity?
     
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  13. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    It's all pretty confusing - in part because the writers of many of the articles, aimed at the general public (not the brewing industry) don't seem to understand that brewhouse size or square footage :rolling_eyes: doesn't tell much about the actual annual capacity of the brewery - and then there's the confusion between hectoliters and barrels/gallons. But:

    ---2016 https://brewpublic.com/beer-news/stone-brewing-world-bistro-gardens-opens-in-berlin-germany/
    ---2019 https://www.sandiegoville.com/2019/04/stone-brewing-berlin-ends-run.html

    Interesting to note that "38k bbl" capacity in the 2016 article is repeated in the above article about Brewdog's purchase. That could just be from using that Brewpublic article as a source but maybe Stone just never added more equipment to expand capacity?
    * So, about 30k bbl. / 35k hl.
    ---2017 - https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-california-beer-20170808-story.html

    https://beerconnoisseur.com/articles/talk-thomas-tyrell-brewmaster-stone-brewing-berlin

    Sounds to me that rather than TOO BIG, they spent TOO much money on a brewery with a small capacity and yet never had the market (despite all those countries) to expand it.
     
    #913 jesskidden, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  14. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,651) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
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    I'm not sure if changes in classification of craft breweries had any impact on the numbers below but I thought they were noteworthy when they were first published.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    For 2017 they only posted the image below from what I could find, and none for 2018 as of yet.
    [​IMG]

    So as the Berlin project was ramping up there was a shift afoot in US craft beer exports it seems, and quite a steep drop off at that (or is the picture skewed due to missing craft beer volumes from "ex craft" breweries?).
     
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  15. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,141) Nov 3, 2005 California

    According to my German source (Inside Getraenke) the project was originally priced at 18 million Euros and would be set up to be able to brew 200,000 HL.
     
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  16. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,141) Nov 3, 2005 California

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  17. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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  18. boddhitree

    boddhitree Pooh-Bah (1,765) Apr 13, 2008 Germany
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    About Stone in Berlin...of all the reason's Stone wasn't successful that were mentioned in the article, the main thing that killed them in my opinion was having a location too far outside the center of the city and without easy access to the public transport system. I don't think the price of the beer was a big impediment, for many German craft brewers are making profits.

    Last time I visited Berlin, I visited some craft beer related places, yet Stone's location was off-putting to say the least. If it had been in a easily accessible location on a subway/tram or Sbahn line, they would've been successful. I guess it's the Cali mind-set of not really getting public transport. There are many craft beer bars which are very successful in Berlin and Germany as a whole, but they're not in some faraway, distant location. First, if you add the bad location with a product that generally is much higher priced than than what your consumer is used to paying, and having a product which is relatively unknown by the masses and seen as somewhat "hipster"... then you make it arduous to get to. Bad business model.

    I actually mentioned the location issue to Greg Koch here on BA, where he chimed in to some of our comments. He said he made it there on a 20+ minute bike ride from the city center. I mentioned without public transport, you're doomed, but it didn't deter him. He might've cycled on a nice weather day, but in northern Germany (and Germany in general), those are few and far between. It's more often rainy, or just damp, in winter cold and often snowy...yea. So, you need to drive out there, and Germans are pretty good about not drinking and driving.

    Berlin is booming craft beer-wise, but business is still all about location.
     
  19. jonb5

    jonb5 Pooh-Bah (1,631) May 11, 2010 England
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    I wouldn’t want to cycle from Mariendorf to the centre of Berlin after a few tasty but strong Stone beers.

    In Germany you can lose your driving license if get caught cycling while intoxicated.

    Does Uber operate in Berlin? It wasn’t available when I went to Stone.
     
  20. Roadkizzle

    Roadkizzle Initiate (0) Nov 6, 2007 Texas

    ABGB and Live Oak I find make their Pilsners from a different route.
    Live Oak has more malt flavor along with a strong Saaz/Tettnang hop flavor and bitterness. It matched up well in a tasting with Wernesgrüner and Pilsner Urquell ( PU was the smoothest tasting but still.)
    ABGB has a crisper profile still with good malt flavor and a great balance between the hops and malt.

    ABGB makes phenomenal pale lagers and they're different than Live Oaks and in most cases on the Pale Lager front I'd say they edge out Live Oak... But they haven't really had much more on the lager front than Pilsners of some sort or a Helles.
    Live Oak shines the number of European styles they make very well. I love their Schwarzbier, Grodziskie, their Lichtenheiner, Hefeweizen, Oktoberfest, and more. Plus their smoked beers are the only ones I've really enjoyed from the US (I love Schlenkerla at the Schlenkerla Keller and biergartens around Bamberg). They make a rauchbier, a smoked schwarzbier, a smoked Oktoberfest, the Grodziskie and more.

    If I want a crisp pilsner I'll go to ABGB any day but if I want European style beers then I'll go to Live Oak.
     
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