Toppling Goliath collaboration with Binny's Beverage Depot

So that should mean I was a bit wrong just above I think. If they never take possesion but have all that variety, etc. there's got to be a middle man who does the blending etc. at their request, etc. That would also imply that the middle man probably has other customers who want the same service, etc. That's much more effecient for all parties involved than my more expensive proposed model.

 

Love Binny's! Too bad NW Illinois is the one area that would benefit me the most (I'm in Dubuque, IA right across the river) I always make a stop at Binny's whenever I'm in/near Chicago. The one on Jefferson Street downtown had the best beer selection I've ever seen. It was unreal.

 

So Binny's talks to the Knob Creek guys, maybe tries a couple barrel samples, and then picks one (or several), and it gets bottled as "Single Barrel Reserve - picked by Binny's" and then the wholesaler sells that barrel only to Binny's
https://www.binny.com/blog/post/2018-knob-creek-handpicked-single-barrels

The do this with Buffalo Trace, Four Roses, Maker's etc etc. FWGS in PA does this too, I know they do it with Four Roses Barrel for sure because I bought some last time I was in PA.

Sometimes when they ship the cases to the wholesaler -> store / bar, they shrinkwrap the physical barrel on top of the pallets. Or they can just FedEx it or hand deliver to wherever they want the physical barrel, in this case TG.

These bourbons are 'single barrel' so there's no blending, ideally there isn't even water added, it's just dumped out of the barrel, some sediment removed, and no water added. I'm not catching your "proposal" but this is how it is done when people buy single barrels/ store picks of bourbon.

 

Gotcha, no blending needed but Binny's buys/owns enough barrels total to take barrels off the hands of folks who might otherwise have to dispos of them in some other fashion and then let the brewer use on this beer. IIRC can't the empty barrels be kept moist for a while waiting?

 

Well bourbon barrels are in high demand [Scotch | Rum | Tequila| Wine | Hot Sauce | Maple Syrup | Beer] all reuse once used bourbon barrels. So it's not like they're thinking about throwing them away, not even close there are barrel brokers who buy and sell just like any other commodity.

In some situations in fact the Scotch producer is actually the owner of the barrel from the start, but they "lend"/"rent" the barrel to Jack Daniel's, who "seasons" the barrel with their whiskey before shipping it across the Atlantic.

Barrels do better full, as soon as they are not full, they get messed up (need work to get going again, which is why most Scotch producers have cooperages on site and/or rebuild the barrels into larger hogsheads, out of the pieces of a bourbon barrel). You wouldn't want to fill up a once used bourbon barrel with water "just to keep it moist" if that's what you're thinking.

 

Yeah, I've long known of the demand for used Bourbon barrels though my exploration of the Single Malts that were a passion while making frequent trips though Heathrow and several other International bottle shops while traveling. Those scots typical recondition the barrels and may use them for dozens of years.

Agreed with the issue of increased demand because of brewers demand, etc. One doesn't just ramp up production of used barrels overnight with that aging time lag.

Still I can't yet rule out the possibility that lots of barrels are delivered, emptied, bottles filled and then, by prior agreement, barrels passed to Binny and then on to the brewery. Agreed it would be hard to coordinate, but, impossible?

 

Glenmorangie does this with new oak barrels, they’re freely used then the property of Glenmorangie who inputs scotch.

 

I wish I knew the people to tag for sure. This is really a question (at least when it comes to beer) about the potential for infection. The longer the barrels are empty, the greater the chance. Going to take a chance and tag a few people that might know:

@FBarber @Sabtos @Squire @Highbrow @Lazhal

 

It's more that the older they are the more damaged and pourous they become, adding to waste and evaporation than anything, and they impart less flavor. They can always steam clean it.

 

Buuut, doesn't that defeat the purpose of using a bourbon barrel? Isn't it at that point, just a "used barrel" that at one point held bourbon?

Or am I wrong to think that this process would remove all the bourbon?

 

This is probably above my pay grade here, but I don’t understanding cleaning a barrel. Sure there’s wet barrels and those that might be a bit dry, but I’d assume scotch distillers are looking for nuance, and 10 years in a barrel lend a kiss and not a hammer. I doubt distillers want a hot barrel of bourbon that would over power their scotch. And opposite that I’d assume brewers would prefer wet barrels, they need more influence from only 6-12 months aging in their beers. I’m sure this process and transition is quite refined and orderly, the slight sweetness you get from a scotch done in a bourbon barrel is priceless, then they can bottle or finish in other barrels

 

In general, yes, brewers want wet barrels. That's what makes BCBS what BCBS is: The fact that the base is dumped into freshly dumped, wet barrels. That's one of (or maybe the primary reason?) why it has that real bourbon kick to it, and others do not. That's not to say the base doesn't play a role in perhaps "absorbing" the flavor, it may, but the process certainly plays a big role.

 

Yes and no, depending on barrel condition at the time it arrives at the brewery. Even well used the technology is there to produce a clean barrel that retains some Bourbon traits but we are dealing with a natural product vessel that varies tremendously in individual characteristics. When new the barrels will vary depending on the age of the tree, growth conditions, denser or more porous wood which affect how the char takes, whether the wood was kiln or air dried and if naturally dried for how long. Quick dried (kiln) can retain as much as 24% of the original sap content whereas two year air dried can be as low as .05%. Then of course we have to consider warehouse placement of the barrel and most importantly how long the barrel was used to age Bourbon. I can only imagine all the subtle difficulties brewers face when using such highly inconsistent aging vessels of only 53 gallons each. Basically, using a refill Bourbon barrel to age beer is an exercise in controlled inconsistency.

 

Well said. Thank you for the lesson. Always a wealth of information.

 

I think the difference here in wants is just simply time. Bourbon aged 12 years deeply impacts the oak barrel. So the needs of a brewery are very different than a distiller. GI needs hot barrels to impact flavor at a greater and faster rate than a scotch distiller who might patiently wait for 10 years to extract the subtle flavors. I might think hot barrels would not be a positive for scotch but I certainly can’t know that. But I’d assume the scotch distiller is maintaining a proud tradition, their whiskey is the thing, and the bourbon influence of just a kiss is what they seek. The first guys to do this probably got death threats from traditional scotch distillers. But I love both scenarios.

 

So when we see Toppling Goliath in PA.. Any week now

 

For sure that may be the ideal for a case like the one you mentioned. I definitely know nothing about a distiller user a bourbon barrel for their own aging. I was certainly only speaking to what I know about what brewers (i.e. beer) want to use.

 

I’m only aware after enjoying Glenmorangie Aged 10 years in a bourbon barrel then finished two years in high end port barrels. Just a tremendous whiskey. But I’ve had ipas done in hot bourbon barrels thst tasted like a shot and a beer , the beer you couldn’t see thru the glass , and I loved it, so different, just a bourbon hammer. But hot barrels I would think would be essential for breweries. Time says so.

 

This is a great move by Binnys. Now Chicagoland folk can get a hold of a TG barrel aged stout without driving 5 hours. I imagine the bottle count will be pretty low. They should do the same thing with Pulpit Rock next.