Black Lives Matter @BeerAdvocate

I can't speak to what @Todd and others have in mind. I can only speak to what I would hope for, and that is for there to be a more culturally competent mod team willing to step in more frequently when these issues arise. That is, a mod team that recognizes when a conversation is being overtly racist (easy) or has racist undertones (hard), a mod team that's willing to ask, "are there racial issues at play in this conversation," and a mod team that's willing to talk about those issues. If @officerbill 's point is that these conversations are tricky and sometimes a little messy, I would agree that it's a valid one, but one that we can deal with. I think the mods can recognize when people are conversing with understanding and thoughtfulness as opposed to people are being belligerent and offensive.

I disagree with some of the people I've quoted and replied to in this thread, and they may still disagree with me, but I think their responses have typically been thoughtful and courteous. I appreciate that. I think it speaks to how we can move forward as a more inclusive community while furthering the conversation and standing up for social justice.

 

Some people (I'd even argue most) never realize it, which is why the problem gets passed down generation after generation. Sounds like his subconscious might have been playing tricks on him, ie on some level he knows what he's saying is unacceptable, but for some reason or another, can't stop himself.

I would ask: safe for who? There are stories of black people being firebombed out of neighborhoods, reported for "trespassing", even when they lived there. Does he think crime doesn't exist in white neighborhoods?

 

Can you please elaborate on this aspect? Are there any specific changes in policies or the way the site is operated to make this a more inclusive and welcoming place for people of color? I only ask because, as one of said people, I personally have always felt quite welcome (probably the most welcome of anywhere else on the internet, tbh) and I am wondering which aspects of the site that can, and right fully should, be corrected or improved. It seems like you guys have done a stellar job these past ~14 years that I've been a member, so it makes me curious as to what we can do a better job of here (not only as a community but the site as a whole)

Regardless, I am happy that you guys are bringing a bigger spotlight of social justice to the site and I also hope that this site will maintain the same level of courteousness, open-mindedness and professionalism that I've experienced these past 14 years (or so). I enjoyed the way things were up until this point and I hope that it remains the same welcoming place for all people interested in beer that it has always been. The world is divisive enough as it is; beer brings us all together and that's why I love this place.

 

We've said it before. People have mentioned that they do not feel comfortable coming here or didn't know it was a place where certain mindsets and attitudes wouldn't be tolerated. Sometimes bigger and more dominant personalities take up a lot of air on something. Things said in the forums that need to be cleaned up and stop being allowed. Perhaps it's not major but it sometimes is equal to microaggressions or thinly veiled things. If it's not you doing it, don't worry about it. If you see something questionable, let us know. Having more inclusive moderators to look for things we might not always catch or understand right away. Lessons learned for all of us.

 

Well to my defense it's been a long thread with different perspectives, viewpoints and opinions so my apologies that you had "said it before" because it must've been lost on me in the cacophony of voices of the thread (my ADD at its finest!). Anyway, I do appreciate you answering my question clearly and directly. It is assuring that the site is in good hands.

 

Well Done! Thanks for this, Todd!

 

Without getting too far off topic, this is the problem with police culture that is perpetuating the murder of black men. We clearly have a situation where an officer has had several complaints filed against him, yet he was never removed from service. So now we have one bad cop who is being kept on staff by other officers. By not doing anything and becoming complacent those good cops are now equally guilty for the murder of a man. In that situation there were no good cops. In this specific situation there other coos could have said stop, but instead they acted as shields so onlookers could not film. Right now the whole thing has the feel of an authoritarian power grab. The police are killing black men for non violent offenses. Police are using non lethal ordinance on peaceful protesters and the media who are not breaking any laws. Its 1942 guys.

 

Implying that the only bad cops are the ones physically murdering others or calling them “public safety officers” as a rhetorical device is exactly the kind of fantastical bullshit that allows these abuses to pervade, much more so than the outright racism we see and is much easier to identify, because it is so prevalent.

I’ve met a lot of cops before, and I have yet to know a “good cop.” But hey, maybe that magical individual who signed up to be an officer to enact social justice from the inside, who didn’t protect their fellow officers from punishment for wrongdoing, and who weren’t canned in 6 months exist... ? There’s a first time for everything, I guess.

 

The politics of racism can’t be avoided. Politicians need to legislate changes. We have to vote in those politicians. It’s encouraging to see the protests are very multiracial. Though I have to say I was also encouraged 45-50 years ago when I marched for civil rights. Look where we are still.

 

I think people are being a little too black and white re: police / no good cop.

And just for initial context - all four cops involved with George Floyd’s murder are bad cops, so I’m not referring to cops like the other three who were actively complicit in letting something horrific happen. Forget complicit. Just active. But take @tzieser ’s cousin for example. Sounds like she joined for the right reasons and with good intentions. And if we want to say that she and others like her are not good cops because they have allowed the status quo to exist - then that’s fine. But then you need to look outside of the police, and look at society as a whole and level the same charge.

I’m a straight white guy living in NYC who works in finance. My type is sort of the poster child for “liberal elite”. And sure - prior to recent events I’ve said the right things (and meant them too). And gotten indignant about the right things. But like so what? Talk is cheap. Have I actually done anything on any sort of focused/ongoing basis to help fix things? No.

How many of you have lived a perfect life and made no mistakes, and done the right thing in every situation? The answer is zero. Speaking for myself there have been times for where I’ve done the right thing and I’m proud of that. There have been plenty of times where I haven’t though, and where I’ve been complicit in some sort of injustice. And I’m sure there are tons of times where - thanks to my position of privilege - I wasn’t even conscious that there was any sort of injustice playing out to begin with. So guilty there too.

Cops - like anyone - exist on a spectrum. There are some legitimately fucking evil cops, some bad cops, some indifferent cops. All of them deserve full accountability. Full justice needs to be meted out. But I’m sure there are some idealistic ones too, and ones who try and make a positive difference within their community. So if they’re not good because they haven’t used every opportunity to speak out against their organization then that’s fine. I get that argument. But then it applies to all of us. I refuse to believe that I’m a better person than any cop period, just because I’m not police.

 

I don't think tzieser told us anything about his cousin's intentions or stance on these issues, unless I missed it? And either way, to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I'd put a lot of stock into that account.

"And if we want to say that she and others like her are not good cops because they have allowed the status quo to exist - then that’s fine. But then you need to look outside of the police, and look at society as a whole and level the same charge."

... Sure. This is a fine summary. This is the feeling behind my sentiment that I've never met or known a good cop (I've lived in a diverse variety of places).

"I refuse to believe that I’m a better person than any cop period, just because I’m not police."

You, assumably, don't promote injustice by furthering the goals of authoritarian institutions given your choice of career though, right? All else being equal, I'd say that's a good start. Obviously people are multifaceted, but we're making huge generalizations here (that are completely fair to do until we have more detail to assess). Of course you could be a white supremacist oil tycoon, a guy who takes up two spaces at the grocery store, or something equally heinous... but I don't think I'm being too black and white by saying that being a cop is not a good start, and that I haven't personally met any with these lovely hypothetical intentions people of certain political persuasions love to fantasize about.

 

Its a training and a selection issue. Not everyone has the right attitude and the mentality to be a cop, and imo they’re generally poorly trained and the training cycle imo surely isn’t adequate. And they should never patrol alone, they need to work is teams, for support, for help, for whatever, single patrolling alone has to stop. It’s false economy imo to do this, it doesn’t pay off in the long run. And that criminal in MN should have been long gone like after the 3d strike, plus he had multiple shootings that were cleared, most officers go 20 years and rarely have to pull it let alone pull the trigger. He was unsuitable to be a cop, the system failed there.

 

with all respect - and that is not a passive aggressive internet statement, because everything you post (even prior to recent events) relating to social/racial/political topics I am literally always in agreement with - then ironically this is your white privilege at play. How can you presume to know what it’s like being a dark skinned Latina woman in the police force, and to paint people like that with the same brush that we paint those fucking turds in Minneapolis:

And @tzieser im sorry to reference you or your cousin here. But since you mentioned her in this thread she was front and center regarding what I was thinking about

 

If you’ve never met a “good cop” either you’re not trying or your minds made up just looking at the uniform. Turds like the ones in Mn are the vast minority, and reading his jacket he had no business wearing a badge, how many complaints does one need to be removed from the job? A failure of leadership right there.

 

I'm certainly not presuming to know what it's like being a dark skinned Latina woman in the police force, and I'm sorry if that's how it came off.

I'm making a generalization about one aspect of her life while recognizing that there could be any number of other factors at play, and speaking only to that singular generalization. (And either way, while I don't think anyone meant disrespect towards this particular individual, I think we'd both rather not continue to speak about another user's family member... totally get why she was referenced, but I wouldn't want tensions to flare and I'm sure you probably agree that if the convo goes forward it's probably better handled in the abstract. Apologies if anything came off as offensive, tzieser).

 

Paint with a broad brush much??

 

Not sure what you mean. Do you actively seek out nuclear physicists? I don't. Why should I be looking for good cops, or something?

Again: pursuing a career in law enforcement without a specific aim to upend the current unjustness that stem from law enforcement is enough for me to draw a negative generalization about a group of people (while recognizing that there could be other complicating factors at play that differ by individual!). Because otherwise, you're contributing to the ills that law enforcement perpetuate, which is... you know... not good.

And @nc41 are we all squared away regarding "white privilege?" I saw many users patiently and thoroughly responding to some of your confusion, so I'm hoping there was some learning.

 

In terms of those who pursue a career in law enforcement? Yes, definitely. I'm glad I made myself clear.

 

"Wow, how dare you generalize [people who make an active choice to do something that speaks very strongly to their worldview without much room for exceptional cases]!!! Next you're going to try to tell me that you think it's okay to make generalizations about all [oil lobbyists, cartel members, public defenders in poor areas, paparazzi, nuns]!!"

 

Well said, sir. As a lurker and rare poster, but frequent reader of the great info people share here, I am glad to see a stand taken against the people who use their anonymity to spew hate.

Cheers and love to all of ya!