First time water adjustments - can someone check my work?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by dougofthefuture, Mar 20, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dougofthefuture

    dougofthefuture Pundit (837) Oct 15, 2009 Minnesota

    Man, this stuff gives me a headache. Can someone give me a sanity check? I am trying to use the Bru'n Water spreadsheet to create a water profile for RO water to make a Ruination clone.

    http://tinyurl.com/ruinationwater

    Above is the filled out spreadsheet, but the results are 5.3 grams of gypsum, 2.7 grams of CaCl2, and 5.3 grams of MgCl2. It also appears to indicate 2.7ml of lactic acid in the sparge??

    My questions -
    Am I doing this right?
    Do I need to divide the additions between mash and sparge per this spreadsheet if I am batch sparging?
    Do I need the lactic acid?

    Thanks in advance - I'm lost...
     
  2. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    I am no expert, but here goes. I never used brunwater either.
    I would not use MgCl2 or CaCl2 for a hoppy beer. You want sulfate not chloride for hoppiness so try dropping those and using just gypsum. Get you sulfate up over 200ppm.
    There is a start at least
     
  3. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    I tend to stay away from any Mg contaning salt too. I dont want to shit my pants any more than I already do.
     
  4. dougofthefuture

    dougofthefuture Pundit (837) Oct 15, 2009 Minnesota

    Just gypsum reports not enough Magnesium, and way too much sulfate - am I too concerned with the calculator? Keep in mind that this is for RO water, so perhaps it needs more additions? I have no clue though...
     
  5. aficionado

    aficionado Initiate (0) Jan 6, 2011 New Jersey

    Agreed, but what if he requires more calcium than can be provided by the Gypsum? Should he just resort to CaCl2, use Calcium Carbonate (Chalk) and subsequently hear a shitstorm from the vets, or try to hunt down Pickling Lime, which I rarely see at any LHBS?

    You think the sulfate should be THAT high for this beer?

    Haha, agreed. I also think the OP can skip the lactic acid. If I added acid to a hoppy wort, I would use phosphoric acid.

    A less complex calculator the OP can use -->: http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/
     
  6. cracker

    cracker Pundit (893) May 2, 2004 Pennsylvania

    What's wrong with lactic acid? If anything, when needed I find it preferable to phophoric acid as phosphoric acid can bind to calcium and precipitate out calcium ions of which my water is already low in. I've never used more than 2-3 ml in a 5 gallon batch and never noticed any off putting flavors.
     
  7. aficionado

    aficionado Initiate (0) Jan 6, 2011 New Jersey

    In "Brewing Better Beer", Gordon Strong says (page 50): "Adding phosphoric acid is the easiest way to lower the pH of sparge water without adding undesirable flavors. Lactic acid is a distant second choice."

    Vinnie Cilurzo says you can use either lactic or phosphoric, so both work and they each have their pitfalls and pose different effects vs. pH depending on how they are implemented. Lactic acid is generally added to the mash whereas phosphoric is generally used in the sparge.

    Lactic also has a distinct taste that is either pleasant or undesirable depending on the style; for a hoppy beer, I think it's undesirable. Phosphoric acid doesn't have an off taste when used properly. A friend of mine used phosphoric acid at the rate of 5 ml in his 5 gallon batch and we didn't notice any off flavors or tang either.
     
  8. cracker

    cracker Pundit (893) May 2, 2004 Pennsylvania

    I only use it in the mash so I can't comment on sparge water treatment. Never done that...
     
  9. dougofthefuture

    dougofthefuture Pundit (837) Oct 15, 2009 Minnesota

    Ok, I think I'm going to start simple and skip the acid, as the PH seems to look ok without it. I'm happy to be learning about this stuff though...

    I'm looking at about 8 grams of Gypsum and 3 of Calcium Chloride. This seems to make Bru'n water happy, except for magnesium. I'll be sure to use yeast nutrient... Thoughts?

    Did you guys decide if I need to treat mash and sparge water separately if I am a batch sparger?
    Edit: thanks cracker! I'll do the full amount in the mash I suppose.
     
  10. jokelahoma

    jokelahoma Savant (1,162) May 9, 2004 Missouri

    I wouldn't use Magnesium Chloride (Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate). In fact, I wouldn't use Calcium Chloride in an IPA unless the chloride levels were way too low. You want your sulfate to chloride ratio to lean heavily toward sulfates in order to bring out the bitterness.

    I use the EZ Water spreadsheet, and based on that, if your starting water is the 10 Ca, 2Mg, 5 Na, 8 Cl, 13 S)4 and 24 bicarbonate, then to get a decent water profile you could add 4 grams of Gypsum and 2 grams Epsom salt to both your mash and sparge water (or some will say to the mash and boil). That gets your profile to 65 Ca, 13 Mg, and 195 SO4 without changing the others, and you'll end up with a bitter beer without it being too harsh. Adding chloride back in just mellows out the bitterness. If you really want to come close to the chloride profile, you can add a gram of CaCl to the mash and sparge to end up with 81 Ca and 37 Cl. Not out of whack, by any means.

    Note that I measured that with roughly 4.5 gallons mash and sparge water, so if you stick with the 5.5 and 5, your numbers will vary a bit.
     
  11. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    You can use phosphoric acid in the mash. The experts say yes it will decrease some of the calcium, but you have >1000 times that in the mash in the form of phytin, so the result is minimal. Remember that you are depending on Ca to react with the phytin to produce H+ ions that drops the pH.

    I have stopped adding Mg for flavor reasons, not the laxative result, as you don't add that much.

    Sparge water I treat to 5.5 pH, but I mostly fly sparge.
     
  12. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Are you saying you don't add Mg at all anymore? I have done several batches with no Mg (except whatever the malt provides), and they seem none the worse for it, but am curious if you've done the same.
     
  13. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I have been adding Mg less and less. 0.0 ppm for some beers of late. The Mg for yeast health comes from the mash.
     
  14. cracker

    cracker Pundit (893) May 2, 2004 Pennsylvania

    This is true if doing an acid rest which no one really does these days. Also the calcium in phytin is insoluble.

    Both lactic acid and phosphoric acid drop pH by directly adding H+ ions which happens immediately after addition to the mash. As I mentioned above my local water is lowish in Ca ions (42ppm) so I don't want to lower it anymore with phosphoric acid if I can avoid it.
     
  15. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Phytase breaks down phytin in the protein rest, and acidifies the mash.

    Palmer refers to Kohlbach's work on residual alkalinity and the mash, and says that "3.5 equivalents of Ca react with phytin to release 1 equivalent of hydrogen ions". "How to Brew" 3rd addition page 161.

    Yes phosphoric acid is a weak acid and produces H+ immediately. Sierra Nevada has pretty good water too, and acidifies all of their water used in brewing to 5.5 with phosphoric acid.

    Maybe Palmer will cover more in his new book on water.
     
  16. cracker

    cracker Pundit (893) May 2, 2004 Pennsylvania

    I know phytase acidifies the mash. But >90% of homebrewers do not do an acid or protein rest so this enzyme really does not contribute to mash pH for most of us homebrewers. At the saccharification rest it is inactive for the most part. That's why most people use an acid like lactic or phosphoric acid.
     
  17. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    You were talking of the protein rest when I was talking about the Ca reacting with the phytin to produce H+ ions at the sach. temps. That is how Ca lowers the pH.
     
  18. cracker

    cracker Pundit (893) May 2, 2004 Pennsylvania

    Point taken. There are limits though to adding calcium and lowering the pH. On top of that one has to take into account the sulfate and chloride levels. I often use calcium sulfate since my water has a relatively high Cl to sulfate ratio. That being said for very pale beers (German pils for example), I use both lactic acid and calcium sulfate (gypsum).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.