Updates: Top 250 Beers & More!

Blog Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Jan 19, 2013.

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  1. shuajw

    shuajw Pundit (830) Aug 12, 2007 Georgia
    Trader

    Thanks, I know there's probably many retired beers that aren't really relevant anymore, but some like Duck Duck Gooze, M, BCBS Rare, King Henry, etc that still get talked about quite a bit, it would be nice to see them on a list.
     
  2. Beerandraiderfan

    Beerandraiderfan Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Nevada

    Yeah. But it seems you want rarity to count just as much, if not more than taste?

    At the same time, I'll acknowledge my preference structure in this example is the same as yours, Kaggen > Abyss (especially the last two years of it and their whopping "6% bourbon barrel aged" Abyss they're charging 10%+ more for lately, sheesh).

    But I think if you make a 5 gallon batch of awesome beer, but only make it every leap year, and it is more elusive than Manti Teo's girlfriend, you should probably take a slight hit in the "greatest beers of the world rankings."

    I felt the top 100 list with only a 10 review minimum was a de facto "rare beer" list.

    Still not keen on "hads" counting as much as those of us who contribute a substantive review, and the lack of other information that has been missing for about a year now, as drabmuh points out. Patience is a virtue.
     
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  3. Todd

    Todd Founder (13,254) Aug 23, 1996 Finland
    Staff Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    The only real way this list would work is if we put a freeze on reviewing all beers that are retired; not just beers from closes breweries. Otherwise the list would continue to change based on reviews from memory or even worse ... reviews of vintage/old beer. Regardless of the list, it's something we're highly considering.
     
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  4. sukwonee

    sukwonee Initiate (0) Dec 13, 2011 Washington

    While you do have a point that being wide distribution shouldn't equal higher rating, a list like this needs to factor in some sort of weight-averaging to at least eliminate the potential regional biases (for example, I know 100 people in Seattle that think Mac Jack's African Amber is the greatest beer in the world).

    It sucks that Kaggen and RareR Dos took a big hit from this new rating system, but I, along with the majority of members on this site, would probably never find out whether Kaggen tastes better than Abyss and think Abyss is one of the best tasting stouts.
     
  5. yourefragile

    yourefragile Initiate (0) Dec 16, 2006 District of Columbia

    One approach that sort of captures retired beers (and the historical perspective I'm interested in) would be to have Snapshot Top 250 lists. That is, have a (e.g.) 2011 Top 250 that is only calculated using reviews posted prior to Dec 31, 2011 and none after. Tally it the same way the Top 100 was prior to today to capture some flavor of the week beers at that time.

    I realize this would probably create more clutter than you want in your Top lists and additional server/db load, but I think something similar would be appreciated.
     
  6. Todd

    Todd Founder (13,254) Aug 23, 1996 Finland
    Staff Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Anyway, it's obvious that you simply don't agree with this particular change as you're hung up on a single beer taking a temporary hit. Again, if Kaggen is indeed that good it'll rise again.

    Beer. Fun.
     
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  7. kevanb

    kevanb Pooh-Bah (2,569) Apr 4, 2011 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Doesn't it currently seem like beers that a LOT people say are above average (I.E 90 Minute, Alpha King, etc) are now being placed significantly ahead of beers that have many people saying are world class (Bligh's, Oude Gueze Vintage, RareR, etc).

    RareR D.O.S has a 4.6 average review while Alpha King has a 4.3 average review, sounds to me like one is CLEARLY better than the other, yet sits nearly 40 slots below.

    Call me crazy, but I think the Popular - Beers of Fame lists have started to blend a little too much.
     
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  8. Todd

    Todd Founder (13,254) Aug 23, 1996 Finland
    Staff Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Like another in this thread, you seem to be ignoring how the lists are being generated; scroll down to the bottom of the lists to find out or read some of the replies in this thread. And okay, you're a little crazy.
     
  9. kevanb

    kevanb Pooh-Bah (2,569) Apr 4, 2011 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I understand it completely, but perhaps the 100 minimum scores is too high of a threshold, it starts to put a much more significant emphasis on total reviews (which is the whole point of Beers of Fame right?) Perhaps 50 would be better? You said that if Kaggen! really is as good as it says, it would rise, but with the current new landscape, I'd disagree, it seems that for every 1 review of Kaggen! there are roughly 24 reviews of Alpha King. I'd argue that because of the infrequency of it's reviews that it would be punished, even though the next review will most likely be significantly higher than the average reviews of Alpha King.

    Wasn't the whole philosophy of the Popular list to reward beers that are world class but might not get the same national exposure as those that met the 1000, or now, 2000 review mark?
     
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  10. Todd

    Todd Founder (13,254) Aug 23, 1996 Finland
    Staff Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    No. It's not too high (especially for all of the reasons already given) and beers that are truly world-class, but have a lower number of ratings, are still being represented.
     
  11. pmarlowe

    pmarlowe Pooh-Bah (1,899) Nov 27, 2010 Virginia
    Pooh-Bah

    It looks like the new list is dramatically favoring beers with a large number of reviews, which makes sense given how you're calculating the WR. Although I'm not exactly sure why it is weighted that way.
     
  12. kevanb

    kevanb Pooh-Bah (2,569) Apr 4, 2011 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader


    Fair enough. I am definitely interested to see how the lists evolve over the coming weeks/months.
     
  13. sbrotschul

    sbrotschul Initiate (0) Oct 8, 2011 New Jersey

    Thanks for doing to much for all of us. This is a fun/educational/interesting/maddening site, which helps me to find those beers worth finding (and lets me comment on them as I am able!).

    Keep up the great work!
     
  14. Todd

    Todd Founder (13,254) Aug 23, 1996 Finland
    Staff Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    We've been using the same WR algorithm for over a decade now.
     
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  15. pmarlowe

    pmarlowe Pooh-Bah (1,899) Nov 27, 2010 Virginia
    Pooh-Bah

    Sure. You're just shrinking the rAvg number towards something much smaller now that the average across all beers on the list is 3.76.
     
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  16. Todd

    Todd Founder (13,254) Aug 23, 1996 Finland
    Staff Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    The mean (C) moved from 3.67 to 3.76. We lost 12 beers that were under the 100 threshold, but a good number of beers that were on the former list are on the new one; though their positions on the list obviously shifted.
     
  17. hooliganlife

    hooliganlife Pooh-Bah (1,697) Apr 12, 2007 Missouri
    Pooh-Bah Society

    shit, now i am only missing 4 of the top 50

    ISO, this is doable
     
    Rutager likes this.
  18. drabmuh

    drabmuh Initiate (0) Feb 7, 2004 Maryland


    I'm only missing four on the whole list. I'm with you. ISO
     
  19. PatriotsRule

    PatriotsRule Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2012 Massachusetts

    I like these changes, gives me a heck of a lot mo brews to look forward to. Eight out of 250 thus far tried... I guess kiwi rising doesn't have enough ratings but it really is world class
     
  20. yamar68

    yamar68 Initiate (0) Apr 1, 2011 Minnesota

    If you decided to put together a top retired beers list (which I think would be way cool), is there any way you'd be able to allow people to review them without affecting the beer's score?

    If that's at all doable, I think it would also be nice to have that as an option for all beer reviews - maybe a check box like 'do not influence overall beer score.' I think it'd be a great tool for reviewing older beers, infected vintages, et cetera... just as a mode of record keeping and reference for those who might be curious.
     
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