How bitter is your ideal DIPA? Only mildly? What's the secret?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by thecheapies, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. thecheapies

    thecheapies Initiate (0) Jan 11, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I didn't want to post this in the homebrew forum, because I'm not researching information for the purpose of applying it to making these kinds of beer myself. Although, I suppose homebrewers themselves might be able to pass on the best quality of opinion.

    There's a quality in certain DIPAs (and IPAs, alike) that I think we all revere. I'll speak only for myself to say that the Imperial IPAs that I've enjoyed and rated highest all have this rich, oily hop flavor; but, with moderate to almost mild bitterness levels (relative to style). Everyone has their preference as to which hops might be used, and I think we can all agree that freshness and quality are key; but it's the intensity of the flavor, sans the crippling bitterness, that creates that perfect balance. How is this achieved?

    Is it just an art of balance? Pliny has it. Enjoy By has it. Heady Topper is the top example in the style for this very reason. But, I've had others that nail it down. A local beer (for me), Helltown Idle Hands IPA, is a great example of what I'm talking about (for any of you Western PA BAs out there). More come to mind; Three Floyds Dreadnaught, Drake's Hopocalypse, and Lagunitas Sucks is almost there. For Lagunitas, I'd say their DayTime IPA best characterizes this. What I don't entirely understand is the concept of bittering hops vs. aromatic hops in the flavor sense.

    Now, there are other DIPAs that I enjoy that have a more pronounced bitterness to them. Hopslam, for one, and it's still a great beer. Double Crooked Tree, Gandhi-Bot, Lake Erie Monster, Hoptimum, etc. Where does this extra bitterness come from? How does the hop schedule of producing, say Palate Wrecker, differ from the hop schedule of Pliny or Heady (obviously, secrets of the head brewer)? It can't just be the freshness of the hops, as even some young bottles of a quality Harvest IPA, such as the one brewed by Founders, still has a nice zap of hop bitterness that slightly exceeds the overall balance. Are these gooey, fruity hops that we taste in a fresh can of Heady of the bittering variety or the aromatic variety? How do aromatic hops translate in the flavor of a beer? Is it the ratio of aromatic vs. bittering during the boil? Does dry-hopping or hop-backing come into play? Question to the homebrewers out there, what produces the best result for you?

    Sorry for the long thread, but I'm just really curious to learn about the artful craft of some of these beers. Opine below, please. And, if you know the intense flavor/low bitterness balance that I speak of, list other examples of IPAs that fit this description.

    Thanks for reading, and cheers!
     
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  2. Pahn

    Pahn Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2009 New York

    secret: balance with other flavors. pliny and heady (latter i assume, former i know) are about 90~100 IBUs, literally as bitter as beer can be. everything else in the beer balances it out.

    what you're talking about is what people call "perceived bitterness" (though questions of "perceived" vs "true" get muddled and hard to discuss pretty quickly, especially in sensory talk where it's hard to imagine how something could "seem" bitter but not be "really" bitter, since it's all perception anyway). it's achieved the same way as anything else perceived in the beer: good recipe, good execution.

    for me, bitterness should be noticeable, but not too much. i want it to do its job of taming sweetness (alcohol helps bitterness with this fight usually), and usually i want it to go a few notches further than that to give a little kick. it's hard to generalize...

    p.s. an example of a beer that doesn't get there for me is oskar blues deviant dales. delicious hop bomb, but not quite in balance (it's tipped toward sweet).
     
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  3. tewaris

    tewaris Initiate (0) Jul 14, 2009 Minnesota

    Dry hopping = all flavor.

    Late hopping = more flavor, less bitterness.

    Early hopping = all bitterness (almost).

    Of course, the AA content is a factor in deciding which hop to use for which application; then again, there are general purpose hops that fit all applications. Centennial is my favorite amongst the general purpose ones, although I admit that I am not that good of a taster.

    Also, Homebrew42.
     
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  4. BottleCaps80

    BottleCaps80 Initiate (0) Jan 12, 2013 Iowa

    I love an IPA with fresh/wet hops to give that bitter, grassy flavor. 100+ IBU. Surly Wet ftw.
     
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  5. fujindemon74

    fujindemon74 Pooh-Bah (1,797) Nov 7, 2012 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I like juicy, fruity, citrus up front with a nice bittering on the finish in my DIPAs.

    ISO recommendations.
     
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  6. thecheapies

    thecheapies Initiate (0) Jan 11, 2009 Pennsylvania

    This could be a big part of the answer I was looking for. What's a good example of a quality IIPA that's dry-hopped to all hell, in a really good way?
     
  7. fujindemon74

    fujindemon74 Pooh-Bah (1,797) Nov 7, 2012 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    DFH 90min
     
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  8. checktherhyme

    checktherhyme Pundit (890) Apr 8, 2008 Washington

    I think that DIPA's like Pliny or Hop Stoopid do it perfectly. They have a ton of hops (over 100 IBU), but neither of them are bitter by any means. There is some reidual sweetness that help bring out the hops, hide the ABV, and make them easy to drink. Almost too easy...
     
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  9. thecheapies

    thecheapies Initiate (0) Jan 11, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Good call. Still, I'd exclude 90 Minute from the class I'm trying to speak of because I think it leans too much toward malty sweet. However, it's definitely a high-rated DIPA in my book.
     
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  10. thecheapies

    thecheapies Initiate (0) Jan 11, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Exactly. Hop Stoopid is another very good example. The residual sweetness is something that fits my description, as well (although, I do find Pliny pleasingly drier), but specifically when it comes from very pale malts. I'm not the biggest fan of that caramel/toasted grain kind of malt sweetness that shows up. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy Maharaja, but that's one I'd like to single out as an example.
     
  11. fujindemon74

    fujindemon74 Pooh-Bah (1,797) Nov 7, 2012 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Understood.
    At least you don't hate it.
    The hate that 90min can get just has me smh.
     
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  12. kpacedo

    kpacedo Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2009 California

    Sorry to say it, but besides the above mentioned IPAs, I would add Younger and to a lesser degree Simtra. I feel like there is so much late boil and dry hopping going on, the alcohol and sweetness and bitterness is very well balanced. You can easily trade for Simtra, Younger not so much. You mentioned Sucks, which I think is a great value and another tropical IPA without much bitterness on the back end. For my tastes, the higher abv IPAs which come across as "tropical" seem more balanced because the tropical hop flavors seem to temper the malty sweetness. JMHO
     
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  13. Bitterbill

    Bitterbill Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,772) Sep 14, 2002 Wyoming
    Pooh-Bah Society

    For me, the ideal DIPA is what Odell does with Myrcenary.
     
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  14. fujindemon74

    fujindemon74 Pooh-Bah (1,797) Nov 7, 2012 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Haven't had it in awhile, but something tells me CW Illumination might fit the bill.
    I could be wrong though.
    I seem to remember my 4pk was there & gone in a minute.
     
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  15. thecheapies

    thecheapies Initiate (0) Jan 11, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I think we can agree to write-off any mass hatred toward beers like 90 Minute that we know are genuine classics and premium brews. I most certainly love that beer. And, it's not entirely in that residual caramel malt sweetness category. There is a toasty dark bread character, and the sugars almost remind me of buckwheat honey. Malty, yes. But, also unique and pretty damn tasty.
     
  16. thecheapies

    thecheapies Initiate (0) Jan 11, 2009 Pennsylvania

    And, so it is...

    ISO: Simtra

    Thanks!
     
  17. thecheapies

    thecheapies Initiate (0) Jan 11, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Another one I'd absolutely love to try.
     
  18. Mohican88

    Mohican88 Initiate (0) Jan 20, 2010 Ohio

    When the read the mention of a certain quality in the OP I immediately knew what he was referring to. Columbus IPA and Bodhi are fantastic IPAs that attain this quality and brought me back into the world of IPAs after having too many that simply beat me over the head and drove me away by relying on bitterness.
     
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  19. Savearth

    Savearth Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2012 Michigan

    Nice post OP. I've been pondering that same issue and trying to find brews that fit the bill for my palate. Love the hoppy flavor, but HATE the lingering, bitter aftertaste of some IPAs/DIPAs. My DIPA standard brew is Heady. Love the funky smell as well as the taste. Another one I had recently that I thought was almost on par with Heady was Surly Abrasive. It was scary easy to drink!

    Just my humble opinion...

    Since Heady isn't a local option, I'm keeping an eye on this thread to hopefully get a few recommendations of other beers to try. Thanks!
     
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  20. RockAZ

    RockAZ Pundit (983) Jan 6, 2009 Arizona

    I like the fresh fruity citrus hop smell and taste up front battling it out all the way into and around my mouth with the sweet high alcohol and bitterness competing with each other. Competing with each other to leave the final taste in my mouth so much that it takes five or six gulps to finally determine which has the last say on the finishing taste. The more sips it takes to determine the last flavor, the better I like that (D)IPA.

    Having said this, bottled beer just doesn't seem to engage in that battle royal as well as draft for me. Fresh keg, newly tapped and any of the beers mentioned upthread will do it for me. A couple of rare times I have even had DFH 120 on draft that poured with a generous woody tasting carbonation with soft mouthfeel and highly fresh hop scented nose where it usually it is a sweet oil slick that burns with bitterness all the way to heartburn.

    While greater palates than mine describe IPA perfection as "hop-balance", I prefer to experience a war in my mouth, with the slight edge towards bitterness at the end after a really good fight with the sweet malts/alcohol level.
     
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