What is that "pale lager" flavor?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by fox227, Jan 30, 2013.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. WickedSluggy

    WickedSluggy Savant (1,105) Nov 21, 2008 Texas

    DFH 90 is brewed with pilsner malt. It does not taste like a lager.

    Light lagers typically clean of fruity esters but have a noticible sulfur element to their flavor. Most ales, on the other hand, do not have much of a sulfur taste. If you ever brew lagers, you'll be surprised by how much sulfur odor the fermentations produce. It clears up but not completely. Most ale fermentations don't produce much sulfur odor. There are exceptions, for instance wlp013 (london ale) produces some very slight sulfur notes and can be used to make an excellant "mock lager" that will fool the judges.
     
  2. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Just want to stress this point from Palmer: "Cold conditioning the beer for a month or two will often cause these harsh compounds to settle out with the yeast."

    I suspect that many U.S. craft brewers that are set up primarily to produce ales do not let their lagers cold-condition for a month or two, which results in the harsh, grainy character I'm referring to. I suspect that the cloudiness of many U.S. craft lagers is due to this same lack of longer conditioning.
     
    acevenom and Crusader like this.
  3. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,030) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Or, it could just be too much 2 row in place of good Moravian barley malt. :astonished:
     
  4. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Both, I suspect.
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    “I suspect that the cloudiness of many U.S. craft lagers is due to this same lack of longer conditioning.”

    Scott, do you have any examples of US craft lagers that are cloudy? With the exception of US craft brewed Kellerbiers I don’t recall ever seeing cloudy US craft lagers.

    Cheers!
     
  6. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Perhaps should have said unfiltered/hazy. Hazy U.S. craft lagers: most SA lagers, most Victory lagers, most NB lagers, etc., etc. I could go on and on. You've never seen a hazy U.S. craft lager? More and more I think you and I must be living in alternate universes.
     
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Well, I was reacting to the word “cloudy” in your previous post.

    I suppose I have a very different definition for hazy then you do. I personally do not find Victory packaged beers to be hazy to me. For example I would not describe a bottled Victory Prima Pils to be hazy. I would indeed describe the Victory Braumeister Pils beer to be slightly hazy since they are unfiltered:

    “Victory Braumeister Pils With Sladek Hops (5.5) ABV

    Victory Brewing Company

    Unfiltered version of Prima Pils dry-hopped with sladek hops. Heaps of hops give this pale lager a bracing, herbal bite over layers of soft and smooth malt flavor. This refreshing combination of tastes makes Prima a classy quencher in the tradition of the great pilsners of Europe.”

    I personally prefer my beers to be unfiltered. I wish there were more choices of unfiltered US craft brewed lagers.

    Do you object to unfiltered beers?

    Cheers!

    P.S. “More and more I think you and I must be living in alternate universes.” I have said it before and I will say it again: you do indeed have exceptional tastes!
     
  8. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    And, again, I'd agree with you there. :wink: In my homebrewed lagers, I take the necessary steps to get them absolutely crystal clear. Matter of fact, I was just outside at the kegerator pulling off some residual hazy beer from the latest batch of Koelsch (some would say not even a true "lager") after I added gelatin to the keg. Finally there is little to no trace of chill (or any other) haze:

    [​IMG]

    Why do I do it? Because that's the way Koelsch looks and tastes in Koeln. If I can achieve it with minimal effort, why can't a commercial brewery purporting to produce authentic German lager styles do the same? Do I "object" to unflitered beers? If the classic examples of the style are filtered and/or served crystal clear, you bet I do. Why should I settle (!) for anything less?
     
  9. bulldogbrewhaus

    bulldogbrewhaus Initiate (0) Sep 17, 2012 Virginia

    OP-I would guess it is likely that your friend may be picking up on the vienna malt often used in lagers. It has a very distinct flavor. Alot of popular lagers are actually vienna style lagers. Hard to tell without doing a side by side taste test and who would want that....oh wait....:wink:
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Planet Jack calling to Planet Scott!:wink:

    I applaud your efforts in obtaining a crystal clear Kolsch. When I make my Kolsch beers (and I will shortly be making a Kolsch using Kolsch Malt) I also strive to get them to be clear as possible. I use a different method then you but achieve similar results. I do this for my Kolsch beers not so much for aesthetic reasons (but I do understand that rationale) but for flavor reasons. I find that my Kolsch beers taste much better with additional aging to permit the yeast to fully settle. I use Wyeast 2565 yeast.

    Now, when it comes to a US craft lager I am not fussy about haze being present and I prefer to taste of an unfiltered craft lager (e.g., Victory Braumeister Pils, Brooklyn Gold Standard Export Kellerbier, Triumph Aldstadt Lager, Southampton Keller Pils, Urban Chestnut Zwickel, etc.).

    Permit me to relate a conversation I had with Florian Kuplent (brewer of Urban Chestnut Brewery) while we both drank a pint of Urban Chestnut Zwickel:

    Florian: he holds his glass high to view the beer with a florescent light providing back lighting
    Me: “Your Zwickel is pretty clear, I really don’t see any haze at all”
    Florian: “Yeah, this keg is very clear for some reason. It must have been stored cold in a stationary position for quite some time.”
    Me: “I really prefer unfiltered beers.”
    Florian: “I have a filter at the brewery but I haven’t used it yet for any of the beers we brewed to date.”
    Me: “I really hope you never have to use those filters. I am of the opinion that filtering has a negative impact on beer flavor”.
    Florian: nods in agreement

    Cheers!
     
  11. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    So basically you like Kellerbier (or to use the BJCP slight of hand, "American" German lagers).

    IMO, residual yeast muddles the very flavors that give individual styles their defining characteristics. Matter of fact, anything from a dark brown to a slightly orange to a pale yellow unfiltered beer around Franconia is classified as a Kellerbier. You order a Pils, Helles, Dunkles, Rauch, etc., and you're going to get a filtered beer. And rightfully so. The base malt flavors -- as Germans say, the "soul of beer" -- really begin to shine when nothing stands in their way.

    See, I prefer variety. :wink:
     
    acevenom likes this.
  12. acevenom

    acevenom Initiate (0) Oct 7, 2011 Louisiana

    You get a lot of props for doing that. That's a great looking Koelsch. If you can do it at home, why can't more commercial breweries bother to take this extra step? It really doesn't make much sense.

    I do wish more breweries actually advertised they were doing an unfiltered take on certain styles that way there is less confusion. Such a thing isn't easy to tell from looking at the container unless it's actually mentioned on the label. If someone actually wanted to purchase an unfiltered helles, then they would know what they're getting. The same goes for someone who doesn't want an unfiltered helles. And I'm the guy who doesn't want an unfiltered helles.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  13. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Some lagers do have a trace of DMS. Some lager yeasts also kick out H2S, which results in a little rotten egg aroma. You can also get some burnt match sulfur aroma at low levels.

    A good lager will let you taste the malt and noble hops, and not esters and other rough yeast compounds.
     
    steveh and herrburgess like this.
  14. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It takes extra time (tank time is money) and work, compared to a beer that you can make much quicker and get the same $/pint. Makes a lot of sense for the brewer trying to make money and stay open.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Especially when many American tastes tend to prefer the "extra" flavor the yeast imparts. More is better!
     
  16. acevenom

    acevenom Initiate (0) Oct 7, 2011 Louisiana

    Essentially, getting high detectable levels of dimethyl sulfide is the result of poor brewing technique. Proper lagering can help eliminate a lot of DMS. It certainly has nothing to do with the use of corn, which shouldn't give a creamed corn flavor. That's the DMS playing tricks with your mind.
     
  17. acevenom

    acevenom Initiate (0) Oct 7, 2011 Louisiana

    If they can't take the time to do a proper lager, they should stick to ale brewing.
     
  18. WickedSluggy

    WickedSluggy Savant (1,105) Nov 21, 2008 Texas

    One of my favorites Victory Prima Pils is often cloudy. I'm not sure of the cause. Possibly chill haze (would be easy to verify). I have noticed it. It's in about half the reviews too.
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Yeah, HerrBurgess made that comment as well. It has been quite some time since I drank a bottle of Prima Pils but I have zero memory of that beer being cloudy. Most of the bottled lager beers I drink are my homebrewed Pilsners.

    I have ordered Victory Prima Pils many times on draft in the past year and I have zero recollection of those beers being cloudy either.

    Hmmm ……
     
  20. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Poor brewing technique yes, but on the hot side. Note that I never said corn. Having brewed a lot of CAPs I know the difference in aroma. I also know the aroma of DMS caused by infection from judging.

    DMS comes from the grain, especially lightly kilned grains like Pils Malt which have much more of the precursor, SMM. DMS is formed in the mash and boil. With a long enough and vigorous enough boil, it is driven off to low levels. Quick chilling of the wort will also keep it from continuing form after flame out. In homebrewing you are told to keep the lid off the boil so the condensate with DMS does not drip back in. Some commercial brewing kettles have a DMS trough around the dome, so any vapor that does not go up the stack and condenses will collect and run to a drain.
    http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

    Lagering cleans up yeast by products such as VDKs and acetaldehyde. Never heard of lagering cleaning up DMS. If have any references on that let me know.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.