"body?"

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by dougfur, Mar 24, 2013.

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  1. dougfur

    dougfur Initiate (0) Jan 24, 2011 New York

    I'm not sure my terminology is going to be just right here, but I'm a pretty new home brewer and I'm only brewing with extract at this point. I like most of the beers I've made, but one thing that bothers me about almost all of them is the mouthfeel, which tends to be pretty watery. My favorite beers (almost all ipa's) have this "substance" to them. They have body and it feels a little thick, a little slippery... The heads on them tend to be a bit on the creamy side too. Any advice? A little wheat extract? all grain...?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    IPA and APA are difficult categories to ballance bitterness with malt. More malt and less bitterness usually helps give that full bodied taste. A quarter pound of instant oatmeal into your adjunct bag, or some maltodextrin would be welcome too. If you have your recipes handy, post them and we can help dissect where the problem might be.

    FYI, you don't need to do all grain to make a good bitter beer. It's tends to be a hell of a lot cheaper though. :slight_smile:
     
  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    For both body and head retention, carapils will help with those, although I don't think carapils is ever really necessary in an IPA. The slipperiness you describe may be due to hop oils. Using lots of hops also aids head retention. One last thing...carbonation levels affect perception of body too.
     
  4. dougfur

    dougfur Initiate (0) Jan 24, 2011 New York

    Here's an amber ale I brewed recently. The finished product was tasty, but missing that physical body. It feels watery. I'll have to try some oatmeal. I have a DIPA going now that used a bit of wheat DME, so we'll see if that makes any difference.
    To be fair, a lot of commercial beers don't have the body I'm talking about either. But the two best ipa's I've ever had (Kern River Citra and Hill Farmstead's Abner) both have this thicker, kind of slippery, sudsy feel to them. It's a physical property of the beer and I'm dying to know how they do that... Both are a bit hazy as well, which I like. Thanks!

    Amber:
    Grain bag for steeping: 1/2 pound carapils, 1/2 pound caramunich, a handful of cholcolate malt for color

    First boil: 6 pounds golden syrup, 3 pounds amber syrup.

    Hops: 60- 1 oz cascade
    20- 1 oz glacier
    8-4- hopbursting with 1 oz each of liberty, glacier, simcoe, cascade, nugget

    Dry hops: 1 oz simcoe, 1 oz nugget, 1 oz falconer's flight

    Yeast: Wyeast 1272 (american ale 2)
     
  5. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I really don't see why your recipe there wouldn't have fine "body." With a pound of crystal malts and all those hops, you should have great head and retention, and plenty of mouthfeel too. Keep in mind extracts usually have some carapils (or some kind of caramel malts) in them too. You've got enough hops there where you might get a little "oily" effect from all the hop oils.

    How much body do you want anyway? I don't think I've had those beers you mentioned, but let's use a more familiar one, say "Stone IPA." Does this have the body you want?
     
  6. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    This guy drinks KBS--for breakfast! :grimacing:
     
  7. Pahn

    Pahn Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2009 New York

    the difference between citra/abner and stone IPA is that the 2 former are DIPAs.

    OP, if you abstract away from the flavor difference, i'd guess 90min also has that body you're looking for, yes? i think it's just lots of malt/alcohol = fuller body.

    and of course carapils, maltodextrin, flaked oats, less attenuative yeast, etc. may also want to think about treating your water.

    ---

    side comment re: extract IPAs, i think it's a stretch, especially given your tastes (clearly west coast, dry citrusy). don't most extracts have crystal in them? i guess if it's just pale malt it shouldn't make too much of a difference (i'm not as "no extract ever!" as some people), but it seems like you'd end up with too sweet / not dry enough. then again, you're asking for more body, so who knows.

    edit: full disclosure, while i've tasted the finest IPAs in the world, and i've brewed several, i suck at making IPAs. i know the theory but it's never come out well in practice. + haven't brewed in awhile.
     
  8. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Fair enough, 90 minute I'm familiar with and drink regularly, if OP could answer my question using that beer (and Stone IPA, or even Stone ruination for that matter)... :grinning:

    Like my own recent discussion of "muddled" verses "clean," sometimes people need to define what they mean, for both themselves and others, including using examples. Beer discussion language can be rather muddled, after all. :rolling_eyes:

    But really OP's last recipe should be pretty darn tasty with lots of body, if you ask me.
     
  9. dougfur

    dougfur Initiate (0) Jan 24, 2011 New York

    That's a good question. I've had Stone IPA once, thought it was pretty dissapointing, but maybe I got an old one. Stone beers are absurdly expensive in NY, so I've never tried again. DFH 90 is available, but I don't drink it often. For the money, there are MUCH better ipa's out there IMO. So, I haven't had either recently.

    The truth is that very few beers have the kind of physical property I'm trying to describe here. It's just that I've had a couple of them lately and it's such a nice quality for a beer to have. I suspect that there is actually something in these beers, tiny particles of something floating around that make the beer a little "thicker." Or, maybe it's a water issue... Or, maybe it does have to do with hop extract, though neither of these beers felt sticky to me the way Heady Topper does.

    I appreciate all the brain power here. Thanks!
     
  10. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,326) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Pooh-Bah Society

  11. dougfur

    dougfur Initiate (0) Jan 24, 2011 New York

    Actually, I worded that in a confusing way. I like the way Abner/citra have body/substance without the stickiness of Heady Topper. Heady is a great beer, but the stickiness is its biggest flaw in my opinion.
     
  12. RonMex

    RonMex Initiate (0) Oct 21, 2010 Oregon

    For what it's worth, I think I know what you're talking about. I had a similar revelation about a common element of my favorite pale hoppy beers while roadtripping up the west coast (Alpine, Russian River, Pizza Port). The kind of oily feel to the best hoppy beers did not seem to be a function of alcohol content from what I could tell. I suppose it could just come down to some combination of freshness, hop oil content, water chemistry, brewing process, hop quality, etc.

    Some good thoughts from OldSock here:
    http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/09/galaxy-hopped-double-ipa.html
     
  13. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    This is what I've been thinking in reading through this thread. I know what you're talking about too, having been lucky enough to sample a handful of Shaun Hill's IPAs. I always think of it as a "creaminess." CCB White Oak Jai Alai gives me that perception, too. Anyhow, hasn't Shaun H. gone on record saying that it's all about the 1) water and 2) freshness/quality of ingredients? I feel like I've read an interview with him, and those are the factors that he credits with playing so great a role in his finished product.
     
  14. Pahn

    Pahn Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2009 New York

    i strongly suspect that the water @ hill farmstead play a huge role in their pale ales being so amazing. that said, water chemistry is not a foreign science to brewers, so...
     
  15. dougfur

    dougfur Initiate (0) Jan 24, 2011 New York

    Thanks! Reading that made me feel like such an ignorant babe in the world of homebrewing, but there are some interesting things to think about in there. I'd like to learn more about water and how it can be treated to alter a beer.
     
  16. dougfur

    dougfur Initiate (0) Jan 24, 2011 New York

    Yeah, what we really need is to corner this Shaun Hill fellow in a dark room... maybe a bare bulb hanging from the ceiling...:wink:
     
  17. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

  18. jncastillo87

    jncastillo87 Initiate (0) Jan 27, 2013 Texas

    I know what your saying as well but cant put a finger on it. I have been using recipe software to try and come up with something exactly like your talking about. The closest beer I drink that is what your talking about is St Arnolds Endeavor. Pretty sure you cant get that though.
     
  19. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    But Shaun Hill's water chemistry is not exactly public record...it's been hashed out and guessed at before, but who knows what he does...
     
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