Bad Trader Alert

I disagree with this. There's no glory in running a BIF.

Yes, if a person got screwed I'd certainly do my best to help them, but ultimately why would anyone ever willingly take on the risk of running a BIF for zero benefit if they had to be responsible for every person sending a box?

 

So, if one person gets screwed after the BIF organizer set everything up, checked references, etc. he just says "Ah sorry, that sucks." I think not. That's his responsibility to get the lone participant something. Whether he takes that task all on himself or rallies other BIF participants, that person is owed a box.

It's a risk you take, and should accept, running a BIF.

 

So you are saying that the participants should take on no risk? I guess I just don't understand the logic of why the person running the BIF, who is already going above and beyond the call of duty by running the BIF, should take on 100% of the respnosibility and the participants take on 0%. That makes no sense at all to me. If this is what you genuinely believe, then please explain why you think anybody would ever want to run a BIF? The answer is they wouldn't, and thus BIFs would not exist.

A BIF is just a series of trades. By signing up to a BIF a user assumes the same risk as they'd take with a trade. End of story in my mind.

 

Thats how i understood it and in other bifs ive seen or joined if someone gets stiffed then there is something done to help make it right. Although thinking back one participant sent me 2 locals to help ease the pain which was nice but i was still out the other 10+ bottles and the $30 to ship a 12 bottle shipper it sucks.

 

I don't agree that this is an established truth. Effort - yes. Publicity - yes. Actual responsibility to get beers to the person - no. If someone who runs a BIF does this, I feel as though they have gone above and beyond the minimum expectations. Further, you are implying that by checking references of participants, the organizer is vouching for each member, as though either they know everyone in the BIF or that checking references means no one can possibly flake. I just don't agree with that. Running a BIF takes a lot of work. This condition really disincentivizes doing so.

All that said, I would almost certainly send the person some beer and rally others to do the same. But to say it is an established requirement - I think not.

 

Fair enough. I guess I've just been lucky all BIF organizers I've been part of have essentially made it their responsibility to ensure someone who didn't receive a box, actually got one. Not one of them washed their hands of it.

That wasn't my implication, if it came across that way. Checking references is just part of the due diligence, not a fact that no one can flake. My point was even with checking references there's always a risk everyone's taking (i.e. possibility of flaking).

 

That's crap.

I'm in the aforementioned Noob BIF that cbeer is running right now. I have no concern that my box won't show up. Cbeer has done a great job organizing this and making sure that everyone understands what's expected of them. The communication has been exemplary. Those are the things that, as the organizer of the BIF, he's responsible for.

If for some reason my box didn't show up, I would never expect cbeer to send me anything. Would it be his responsibility to send me something if my box showed up with a bunch of broken bottles? Would it be his responsibility to send me something if the person who sent me the box didn't follow the rules of the BIF and I ended up getting a bunch of mediocre beers that I can get locally? How about if the other participant
sent me a bunch of six month old IPA's?

No. Of course not. He set it up, he checked against bad trader lists (and maybe did reference checks), collected info, sent out all the info, posted messages and reminders regulary. THAT'S what he's supposed to do. To suggest that he's somehow responsible for righting any wrongs perpetrated by the participants is ludicrous.

 

With running one for the Stanley Cup Playoffs, sometimes you have to allow someone with very little trade history. It's just the nature of the beast when trying to get every team represented. The requirements go 44, 66, 88, 122 the farther a team went, so its really not that much to hit the minimum. No one wants to run a poor BIF.

 

Thanks again for taking a gamble on me and my limited trade history with this BIF! As a participant it was fun, but I'd hate to be the guy sticking his neck out putting one together.

 

Nope, that would be the sender. He actually sent you a box. I'm talking about someone completely bailing (i.e. someone sent out beer, but never got beer in return). I still think it's the organizers job to get that person missing beer, whether or not he is actually sending it, like I said. As the organizer he has the responsibility to make it known you didn't receive a box. If he wants to pitch in sending, great. If not, his job is to get the word out you have no box and hopefully rally the BIF participants to step up.

Really, this is a moot point because whenever someone doesn't get a box they end up getting one anyway. If the organizer knows you didn't get a box and simply walks away acting like it never happened, that's a problem.

Again, I've never been in a BIF where the organizer didn't do something to get someone missing beer.

 

If a box of beer is going to ruin me financially(even if I'm not expecting to send one), I have some other issues I should tend to.
Everyone has to start somewhere. And you're welcome to join in any beer games I'm involved with.

 

Note to self: Don't run a BIF. Ever. Apparently doing so makes you a babysitter for all participants.

 

A babysitter? No. There's a general trust in the community and not every little movement needs to be watched like a hawk in the BIF. But when something goes wrong (like someone not receiving a box), I think the organizer's attention should be there, no doubt.

If you sent out a box in a BIF and never received one in return, you're okay just writing it off and moving along?

 

OK, seriously...this is getting tiresome.

Would I want something done? You better believe it. Would I expect that the organizer would the one to do something about it? Hell no.

Dude, when someone cuts me off in traffic, when they fuck up my order at the drive-thru, when the telemarketer calls me while I'm making dinner, when it rains while I'm at the beach, when I don't get the job I interviewed for, or when anything else in my life goes wrong, I WANT something to be done about it. Do I expect that there's a person out there whose responsibility it is to make sure that some sort of "justice" is done? No. Shit happens. It sucks, but that's just the way it goes sometimes.

You're right--if I didn't get a box b/c the person that was supposed to send me one never bothered to do so, I assume that others in the BIF, maybe even the organizer, would take it upon themselves to do something to make sure I got some bottles. But that's a far cry from saying it's the organizer's responsibility to make sure a box lands on my porch.

 

Sam,
I had pretty much the same exact experience with this guy. Took two months to get my box. Same excuses: new batch of Dreadnaught coming out next week, week goes by, I ask him for an update, he apologizes, says that a newer batch was coming out next week, etc. He strung me along for close to two months with these excuses and when I finally did get my box, the Dreadnaught tasted like it was 6 months old. Since I got my box, I didn't want to out the guy, but since it seems like this is a common occurrence with him and not an isolated incident, I say add him to the list and there's no shame in outing him.

 

You are saying two different things here--there's a big difference for being responsible for getting the word out that someone got stiffed (and perhaps encouraging people to step up and help out) and being responsible for actually getting that person beer. I do think that it's important for the BIF organizer to confirm that everyone got their box, rather than just handing out names and addresses and quitting BA or something. But they definitely do not take on 100% of the risk for all of the participants, and I can't imagine having that expectation of any of the awesome folks who are generous enough with their time to organize the fun for the rest of us.

 

Agreed. I never said the organizer had to be the one to get the beer on their porch, however, in the grand scheme of things I think it's their responsibility to somehow get beer to them. Whether it be sending themselves, asking the other BIF participants, posting a thread about the "non-sender," etc. That's doing their due diligence to get them their beer. They did something to remedy the situation, that's all you can ask for in an organizer. My point was they simply need to have some part in it, one way or the other. If my original post came across as implying the organizer is the one sending them beer, that was misunderstood then.

Again, you're misunderstanding what I was saying and if it came across misconstrued, I apologize. See above to what I meant. I agree, I'm tired too

 

I had a guy bail in the first BIF I ran.
I sent the recipient a box and talked my regular trading partners into helping out as well because the guy live in OH and there was a big distribution overlap.

In subsequent BIFs I was more strict about the people I let participate. I forced newer users with a less solid trading history to ship the week before and gave strict instructions that no one should ship to them until their box landed safely. Any person that I personally had a bad feeling about was not allowed in.

In these other BIFs I had no problems, but if I did have a trader bail, I would have been under NO OBLIGATION to cover his box. It is not EXPECTED, but here's how I look at it;

*if the host let anyone in and some one got screwed then at least some blame lies with the host.

*but the blame also lies with the other users-- when you are signing up for a BIF look at the other people that are trying to join! The host cannot be expected to know every single Ba user! If you see someone that is questionable, or has no verifiable references, ALERT THE HOST via message. (I have sent many messages advising BIF creators not to let a particular user participate-- and in my BIFs I ask the community to uphold the same vigilance).

*if the host did everything in their power to set up the BIF in such a way as to minimize risk, how can you possibly fault them? In a BIF I'm still running I had Mikesgroove (a guy with over 800 trades) suddenly disappear and rumors surfaces of financial issues. I shouldn't have to cover for a user with 5000 reviews, 800+ trades, and 5+ years on the site! (luckily the BIF got on track again).

*if the host DIDN'T take any precautions to prevent shitbags from participating then I think he should try to help out the burn-victim with a box--- but it's not a requirement and he isn't a "bad trader" if he doesn't. He is simply some one whose BIFs I wouldn't join in the future. I've seen it happen; a host posts in reply to a users claim of never have gotten a box with something like, "shit that sucks!" That makes them sound callous and uncaring, almost like, "sorry you got screwed but i got my box..."
The host needs to HOUND the person relentlessly til they ship out.

The bottom line is this: judge people based on their actions, not the actions of others; the host cannot control what participants do. He can only attempt to minimize risk and offer to help should the need arise.


After reading my own post I feel like I'm missing something:
I'm assuming the host would be some one that actually cares that people don't get screwed.
I could make a strong argument for outing a host as a "bad host" or "lousy Ba" if;
1). There was no form of screening for participants.
AND 2). Some one gets burned and the host doesn't try their damnedest to straighten it out with parties involves.
AND 3). The host doesn't at least offer to help replace a few bottles.

But having all 3 of those conditions occur at once seems most unlikely.

 

I have hosted numerous BIF's, and not one hiccup. I beleive every one that I have ran as been pretty much flawless and a lot of fun to be in. I as an organizer try to do my due diligence by "hunting down and pestering the shit out of a person if they do not respond to beer mails" I even go as far as asking for more information than needed for people who I dont feel like have enough history on the site. I even "cyber" stalk them by going to their profile and looking at their posts. Does this give me all the info I need? no, but it helps give me a type of feel for the person. And absolutely use the provisional status, let them know that their box wont ship until theirs has landed. This helps a ton, and helps prevent people from getting screwed over.
I have however, been screwed in a fantasy football league I was asked to run. A guy (who was an active trader with whom I had seen often) begged to be in. So I did, he was doing fine until injuries decimated his squad, its fantasy football, shit happens. So instead of ponying up his box, he decides not to log on any more. As the organizer, I felt bad that someone flaked out on the league and screwed someone over on beer. The winner of the league was local, so I took care of the box he was owed. I didnt feel like it was my responsibility, I felt like it was the right thing to do. So to each its own, and cheers to ya karma, hopefully you will forever be on my side.

 

This really sucks to see. I was at a tasting with Dan8181 a couple years ago, and he seemed like a great guy. I hope this gets worked out.