AG H20 Q - Adjust Tap Water or Build-up from Distilled?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by DAllspaw, Nov 12, 2014.

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  1. DAllspaw

    DAllspaw Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2009 Indiana

    I only brew All-grain ales, mostly APA, IPA, Porter and Stout. I live in Indianapolis with fairly hard water, and currently adjust with Gypsum and Acidulated Malt using EZ Water Calculator to lower PH and and also to get within Palmer's recommended ranges for Cal, Mag etc. I still have much to learn to create profiles to match style, but I have a fundamental question first.

    Is it best to build up using 100% distilled water, or continue adjusting my tap water? I would think the former, as it rules out any seasonality in my local profile and provides more flexibility.

    Thanks in advance for your input.
     
  2. ltjska04

    ltjska04 Zealot (726) Jun 1, 2005 Kentucky

    Try building up the water and see if you prefer it! That's what I did and haven't gone back to tap water. I can get 10 gallons of RO water at Kroger for $4.
     
  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Depends...are you able to get the profiles you want by adjusting your tap water? If your tap water is fairly hard, as you said, I imagine there would be styles for which you can't really optimize your profile.

    I almost always build from distilled. I like the clean slate. And as you mentioned, it gets rid of seasonal variation.
     
    CurtFromHershey likes this.
  4. alanforbeer

    alanforbeer Crusader (431) Jan 29, 2011 South Carolina

    Although Columbia, SC has decent water for brewing, I use RO from the local Whole Foods-type store about half the time. Using RO is just plain easier if I'm adjusting my mineral profile to fit a certain style.

    Is there anything off-putting about your beers currently? If you know your tap water's mineral profile, perhaps you could post it?
     
  5. DAllspaw

    DAllspaw Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2009 Indiana

     
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Shameless plug time...BrewCipher's Water tab has a built-in "reasonable" water profile example for each BJCP style. Other (standalone) water calculators probably have something similar.
     
    jlordi12 likes this.
  7. DAllspaw

    DAllspaw Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2009 Indiana

    I'm quite pleased with beers lately, but even though using 2% of less of Acid Malt, I get a slightly lingering sourness (which could also be from grist). It's just enough to get me considering building up from scratch. Here's my water profile.

    West Side Indianapolis H20
    pH 7.5
    Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 388
    Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.65
    Cations / Anions, me/L 6.2 / 6.5
    ppm
    Sodium, Na 32
    Potassium, K 3
    Calcium, Ca 66
    Magnesium, Mg 17
    Total Hardness, CaCO3 236
    Nitrate, NO3-N 2.6 (SAFE)
    Sulfate, SO4-S 20
    Chloride, Cl 57
    Carbonate, CO3 < 1
    Bicarbonate, HCO3 211
    Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 173
     
  8. DAllspaw

    DAllspaw Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2009 Indiana

    I use brew cipher 1.0, perhaps I need to upgrade?
     
  9. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Holy crap!
    Ummm, what I meant to say is... There have been significant enhancements since then...
    BrewCipher V3.4.3
     
    DAllspaw likes this.
  10. DAllspaw

    DAllspaw Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2009 Indiana

    Thanks a ton VikeMan. 1.0 was doing the job quite nicely, though admittedly I was doing some double entry in EZ Water to get a batch designed. I can't access this from work, but will grab it tonight and look forward to using on my next batch.
     
  11. alanforbeer

    alanforbeer Crusader (431) Jan 29, 2011 South Carolina

    Yeah, that's some hard water you've got there. Give RO a try. I bet you'll be pleased with the results.
     
    DAllspaw likes this.
  12. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    The hardness is not a problem, the alkalinity is.
     
  13. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,844) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Any MA brewers know where to pick up RO water?
     
  14. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Your tap water has a Residual Alkalinity of about 150, thus it is suitable for dark beers. I would suggest you to use it just for dark beers and use RO water or distilled plus salts addition when brewing pale ones. You ´ve got lucky your tap water hasn´t much sodium, but I guess those bicarbonates won´t help in a pale beer, even worse regarding pale lager ones.
     
    DAllspaw likes this.
  15. DAllspaw

    DAllspaw Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2009 Indiana

    Great advice, and consistent with second hand comment I heard at brewshop about dark beers. Thanks.
     
  16. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    DAllspaw likes this.
  17. DAllspaw

    DAllspaw Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2009 Indiana

    Great thread. I probably could have found had a searched a bit more.Thanks for sharing, it strongly reinforces my decision to go with distiller.
     
  18. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    I calculate an RA of 116 for the OP's water. Still, I agree that except for some dark beers, it would be best to start with distilled water, or at least dilute with distilled. As always, the goal is proper mash pH along with some consideration for flavor in treating with various salts.
     
  19. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    2.4 Residual Alkalinity


    Residual Alkalinity (RA) is brewing-specific value that is derived from both the water's Hardness and Alkalinity to help evaluate potential mashing pH conditions. RA was described in the 1940’s by Paul Kohlbach. He showed that during mashing, calcium and magnesium in the brewing water react with phosphatic compounds in the malt to produce acids that neutralize the water’s alkalinity. This interaction between the brewing water’s hardness and alkalinity is expressed by RA. RA is an indicator that is specific to brewing and is an important factor in defining the suitability of brewing water. RA is calculated with the following equation when calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity are input as (meq/L) or (ppm as CaCO3). The equation below assumes the use of ppm as CaCO3.


    [​IMG]





    With RA, a brewer can better understand the interplay of alkalinity and water hardness and its effect on mashing chemistry and performance. A simplified chart depicting Alkalinity, Effective Hardness, and RA is presented below. Lines of constant RA cross the chart diagonally. This chart is based on work by A.J. Delange.




    [​IMG]


    RA=Alkalinity - ((Ca/3.5+Mg/7))
    RA=173 - ((66/3.5+17/7))
    RA= 173 - 21.28
    RA= 151.72


    Maybe I am doing something wrong, I don´t know how you get RA= 116
     
  20. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Unfortunately, the equation you are using is incorrect. This is surprising as Martin Brungard knows better; he must not have been paying attention when he wrote down the equation you are referring to.

    Your referenced equation is correct if all quantities are in mEq/L, but not in ppm. The correct equation when quantities are in ppm is

    RA (ppm as CaCO3) = Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3) - Ca (ppm) / 1.4 - Mg (ppm) / 1.7.

    This yields RA = 116 ppm (as CaCO3).

    Please refer to pp. 67 - 69 of Water by Palmer and Kaminski for a nice (and correct) discussion of RA. Cheers!
     
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