Bayernbiere Bought and Drunk

I think you were a little harsh on Hacker-Pschorr! I think it suffered by being in the same group as much sweeter variations like Spaten and Augustiner. Taken on its own, I'm sure you'd have no trouble at all finishing ein Maß. (I sure didn't )

 

You mean, like at the Wies'n?

Honestly though, having made my way thru all of the tents at the Wies'n (at one point or another), I wouldn't be able to single one of the brands out as worse than another. Much the same way I enjoy swapping thru Spaten, H-P and Paulaner here at home. Like trying to choose between favorite chocolates.

 

German brewers don’t care much about style definition from overseas, and the BCJP paper does not have any German author, so the definition may lack some expertise (same with Czech beer, by the way)

In Germany, “Festbier” and “Märzen” are used equivalent. Festbier/Märzen is, acc. to the Brauerbund, a beer with more than 13 °Plato. And that’s it. It fills the gap between lighter beers (Pils, Helles, Export) and bock beers which starts at 16 °P.

The terms Festbier or Märzen do not say anything about the colour of the beer or the malt used. I guess that more than 80% of German beers meet the criteria of the BCJP, but there are a lot of amber Festbiers and yellow Märzen. And you can find “Dunkles Märzenbier” and “Märzen Rauchbier”, which puzzles drinkers from U.S. even more (see picture).

 

We have our own confusing subset of nomenclature as well. I know I'm confused some of the time.

"Session" IPA, Black IPA, IPL, American Pale Lager, Double Pale Ale, Wet Hop IPA, American Strong Ale, Imperial Pilsner...and then the latest ruckus surrounding "West Coast IPA" vs. "New England IPA"...

There's been long threads debating differences between American Double Stout, Russian Imperial Stout, Coffee Stouts....also debates over whether there should be a separation between barrel-aged stouts and non-barrel aged, then there's pumpkin stouts, American Wild Ale vs. Gueuze...it goes on and on...

 

You are right. Let others discuss that at length, and have beer meanwhile.
In Germany it's the Reinheitsgebot discussion that make me feel bored as hell. You can easily drink two good beers meanwhile.

 

One of the contributors to the BJCP style guidelines is Evan Rail (@EvanRail). He is very knowledgeable on Czech beer styles.

I suspect that Ron Pattinson (@patto1ro) contributed in the definition of the Czech beer styles as well.

Cheers!

 

First off, I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) the BJCP guidelines are perfect. I also stress, they are guidelines, not hard and fast rules in any way -- especially since we're all learning as we go.

No one said they did, but the guidelines are based on past and current trends by all brewers on any side of the world.

The names Ron Pattinson and Evan Rail evoke expertise on beer from both countries.

No doubt, but there are different German brewers' interpretations of the "style;" some even brew more than one iteration -- as has been pointed out numerous times. Paulaner makes a Wies'n Festbier and an Amber Märzen that are both exported to the U.S. I've even had them both on the same trip to Munich. This is reflected in the new BJCP definitions.

As pointed out above.

Is this actually a Dunkel brewed in the Märzen process, or a darker colored Märzen? The Spaten Oktoberfest Ur Märzen I enjoyed yesterday was around 23 SRM, the Weihentephaner Festbier I enjoyed last week was closer to 4 SRM -- and while still considered to be in the same strength category in Germany, there's no denying they were brewed quite differently -- thus my encouragement that the BJCP is recognizing the differences.

 

Yum - my fav doppel yet

 

I'm also glad they separate the two as well. Thanks for posting the specs above.

They're two separate styles in my opinion, the bar that I posted about in the other thread actually described the two and separates them. I could see your average customer ordering a Hofbrau Festbier and being very confused when they receive something that they might think is a Budweiser.

Calling the amber and pale Oktoberfest beers the same style is akin to calling a Vienna Lager and a Helles Lager the same style. Both the malt profiles and the appearance are different enough to warrant a distinction.

 

...until tasting it.

 

FYI -- I only posted an abridged version of the spec's, if you check out the PDF linked it has the full description of both "styles."

 

The BJCP style guidelines are getting better these days, but no matter what they do, they stil annoy the hell out of me regarding german styles.
All I can say is: Go to franconia, have yourself Märzens and Festbiers by Hummel, St. Georgen and others who do both and tell me-are those not "true to style"........?

 

Has that been claimed by the BJCP -- or anyone, for that matter? If you look at the commercial examples for Festbier and Märzen in the newest guidelines they're all German beers. And that is not to say they're the only commercial examples, but it's pretty telling that there are no American versions listed.

 

No but I'm saying: Trying to force a logic and strict classification system to describe something that has its own dynamic culture is an excercise in futility and can not be accurate,esp. when done from afar -and my problem is not so much the BJCP itself but how others start to treat it like an authority, esp. in germany with people who just got into "craft" it gets really annoying these days, since many live in big cities and have never experienced traditional countryside beer culture
And we are talking about the german beer culture here, which is still kind of structured.. I mean, look at the french biere de gardes,for instance, and see what the BJCP makes of it.

 

I agree, but it appears they are working on that.

Would agree with that too, and I think the BJCP does as well -- read pages v thru vii.

That could be said about anywhere -- and often is!

As said, it looks like they're trying to better their info, and sources -- may not happen on the turn of a dime, but it's a start. Now, if they'd only change up the quick reference online guide to match the updated edition.

 

Local retailer has a lot of H-P, Spaten, and Hofbrau Oktoberfest left -- picked up the HB and enjoying that smooth Wies'n goodness now. Great melanoidin character, even from the lighter malts. With the new HB franchise down the line I really need to get in there to try their beers.

 

Are you talking about the Hofbrauhaus in Collinsville? How far are you from there?

 

No, Rosemont.

I had to look it up, but I was pretty sure I knew where Collinsville was... you yankin' my chain Spartan?

As close as you might be to Illinois, I'm closer to Wisconsin... and that's a looong way from Collinsville!

But now I'm piqued to know what sort of Hofbrauhaus they may have there. If it beats the American Legion in Lebanon, where I spent a fun wedding reception back in the late 80s (where all the locals -- and me -- drank Falstaff), I may have to check it out when we take a road trip for 17th Street BBQ!

 

Man I need to get out In Search Of. My local supermarket hasn't had any German versions all year. Last year they had Spaten late in the season but so far this year nothing. I haven't checked the local-ish specialty store yet, though, just haven't been able to get out und about.

 

I drank more of it this season than I thought I would for precisely this reason. Enjoyed my last three on Saturday in an older HB masskrug: