Northeast Haze through a microscope

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by djuhnk, Mar 18, 2016.

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  1. bulletrain76

    bulletrain76 Maven (1,287) Nov 6, 2007 California

    The quick answer is that hop matter isn't green under a microscope like that. I don't know what is going on in that slide but it looks like some kind of dye was used that is coloring the yeast cells (if you look at a blowup of the picture, it's all yeast cells for the most part). I've looked at slurries that looked more like pesto than what you usually think of as yeast, and under the microscope, they still don't have that coloring. Hop oils are also colorless, FWIW. So ya not sure what exactly is going on but that's just a very yeasty beer.
     
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  2. JohnnyMc

    JohnnyMc Maven (1,477) Feb 14, 2012 Ohio

    I know the brewers/owners and they are definitely not cutting corners. However, they are VERY small and they do canning releases as often as possible. Their beer needs to sit in your fridge for maybe 1-2 weeks so that some of the yeast as time to settle and fall out. If you do that you won't get that harsh, astringent dry/bitter/tingling/whatever going on. Have also found the majority of NE style IPAs are better with a few weeks in the can.
     
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  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    IMO that is an indication that the brewing process is being hastened. IMO it would be 'better' for the brewery to provide sufficient conditioning time such that when they release their beers there is no absolute need for the consumer to perform a cold conditioning process (placing the cans in the refrigerator for a few weeks) after purchase.

    I fully recognize the financial pressures to get product out as quickly as possible but IMO the brewery should only release beers when they are 'done'.

    Cheers!
     
  4. djuhnk

    djuhnk Aspirant (283) Aug 28, 2013 Minnesota

    [/QUOTE]
    I used methylene blue in the first slide just to see how many of the cells were dead after a month in the can. Couldn't use methylene blue on the rest because the samples weren't as big

    I fully agree. If it's going to be packaged hazy, it should not settle out in the can the entire time span of the brewers intended "freshness period". These hazy beers- besides heady topper, to my knowledge are brewed with an intended stable haze.
     
    #64 djuhnk, Mar 19, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
  5. TheDoctor

    TheDoctor Grand Pooh-Bah (3,422) Mar 7, 2013 Canada (QC)
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Lately I have been thinking about "green" beers with all the recent hub-bub about "NE IPAs". However, for all of the times that I have seen people talk about it, I have yet to see anyone talk about what tastes would be indicative of rushing the beer out the door. What are some flavors/aromas/etc. that tell me whether an IPA (or other beers, I suppose) needs to be conditioned more?
     
  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Hopefully @JohnnyMc will respond to your query. He already posted: "If you do that you won't get that harsh, astringent dry/bitter/tingling/whatever going on."

    Cheers!
     
  7. JohnnyMc

    JohnnyMc Maven (1,477) Feb 14, 2012 Ohio

    Oh I definitely understand what you're saying and it's a fair point (wouldn't mind them sitting on them for maybe a week before releasing). What I was also saying though, (at least for me and a few people I know) is that it seems a lot of these yeast heavy and hop heavy NE style beers need time in the fridge before they hit a peak and get better.

    I've enjoyed Trillium, Tree House, Hoof Hearted, Grimm, Other Half, etc. with at least a couple of weeks on them much better than day 1 honestly. Not saying all of those are super astringent, bitter, etc. but they all seem to benefit with time more than filtered IPAs which seem to suffer with 2-3+ weeks.

    Cheers man!

    EDIT: Forgot to mention they use a mobile canning unit and only can on the days that the mobile canning company has open (which can take months to schedule they are so busy). I feel like that factors into it too (though I guess they could can and then wait a week or so to release).
     
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  8. JohnnyMc

    JohnnyMc Maven (1,477) Feb 14, 2012 Ohio

    Yeah, those to me (and it seems others) are what would indicate the IPA in question needs some time.
     
  9. cmurphycode

    cmurphycode Initiate (0) Oct 3, 2010 Massachusetts

    I don't think it's as simple as that.

    For every person who thinks the beers are better with a few weeks on them, there are people who think they're old by then.

    Turns out, some people really enjoy ultra fresh IPA, and some people don't. What these breweries are doing allows us to enjoy it either way. Seems like a good deal to me.
     
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  10. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,326) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    At my brewery, I have started trying to slow down our IPA. For me, it is a bit of a tough balancing act and although I've been brewing this particular recipe for a year now, I still think the timeline needs work.

    Here is a link to the profile: http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/23966/163099/

    When we first started brewing it, it was taking my 3 days to reach terminal gravity. I would let it condition for 3 days before dry hopping and then it would sit on the dry hops for a week. So around day 13-14, I would cold crash, add finings the next day, and 2 days later transfer it to the brite tank. The dry hops would take on more of a grassy flavor after sitting for more than 3 days, so I changed the schedule a bit:

    Same fermentation, but I would let the beer warm condition for 5 days before dry hopping. So then day 11-12 I was cold crashing and dropping the hops. At first I was really pleased with it, but I started to notice that bottles for the fist 5-6 days tasted muddled and bitter. None of the flavors seemed to pop or stand out until the bottles had sat for a week and as the bitterness died down, the hoppy aromas and flavors came out. It is worth noting that all of our hops are added in the last 15 minutes of the boil, in the whirlpool, and dry hop. The total hopping rate is 4 lbs/BBL, plus some pure hop oil. After a week, this IPA has lower apparent bitterness than most IPA's, but the hop flavor and aroma is huge. Unfortunately, it is not very stable and it dies off really quickly at about the 6 week mark.

    I just started a new schedule and the first batches will come out in the next week... I am now dry hopping during fermentation. Test batches showed that if I dry hopped during fermentation, the grassy flavors never come through even though the dry hops might be in the fermenter for a week. We will also be trying spunding to see if dry hopping under pressure can help our hop flavor stability. I do think that even still, the first week in bottles, the beer will be too bitter for my intent. However, it is rare that a bottle leaves the brewery, gets on the shelves, and is purchased by customers in less than 5 days anyways. Beers sold at the brewery for off premise consumption will just be held back for a week before making them available.
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    So, your theory is that the flavor improved because bitterness "died down"? What would be the explanation for this? I know that bitterness (IBUs) decrease in beer over time (i.e., several months) but what exactly is happening over a short timeframe like 5-6 days?

    Cheers!
     
  12. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,326) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    To be honest, I hadn't really thought up much of a theory about why that is the case. I think that hop aromas just take time to develop and that the dry hops go through a stage of originally smelling great, but tasting bitter, and it quickly fades to the more delicate flavors. It could be loosely compared to tasting wort right after boiling and how it tastes super bitter and doesn't have a distinctive hop flavor.

    Edit: It is actually kind of funny how dry hopping can drive commercial brewers crazy. The science of how hop aromas develop has only really been studied in depth recently. It seems like every brewer dry hops a little differently then others trying to figure out what works for them and everyone is constantly trying to do it better. I've spent the last week reading studies on biotransformation, different hopping methods, and listening to Brewer's Association presentations on dry hopping. There are threads all over ProBrewer about the "best" way to dry hop. I think that a lot of people face the same challenges that I'm seeing with the development of an early hop bitterness and a change to flavor and aroma.
     
  13. djuhnk

    djuhnk Aspirant (283) Aug 28, 2013 Minnesota

    I was recently listening to a couple podcasts- one of the breweries said their hoppy beers always have "rough edges for the first two weeks in package" and really hit their sweet spot after that period.

    Then another brewery in Cali was saying that sometimes pulling a sample from their fermenters of a beer they have made a hundred times can lead them to them freaking out because their is little aroma, or the aroma isn't what they expected after dry hops- then with a little time it comes right back to where it needs to be.

    When talking about the flavor stability of these really hazy IPA's I feel that flavor is more impacted due to yeast autolysis. Because as many ppl here already know- having a large amount of yeast in any beer will lead to autolysis flavors over time.. In the month old Hoof Hearted beers we had that day, we noticed some very musty- earthy- mushroomy flavors along with the tropical fruit and citrus that I can't imagine were there when they were fresh
     
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  14. JohnnyMc

    JohnnyMc Maven (1,477) Feb 14, 2012 Ohio

    Ok....turns out I enjoy really fresh IPAs, but the NE style ones have not been as good day one. Every hoppy beer I've had from Columbus, Fat Head's, JAFB, Stone, Oskar Blues, etc. tastes best the day of, but it's these unfiltered "juice" bombs that don't seem to be as good right out of the gate.
     
  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Weedy, one of my motivations for asking my question is to try and better understand my own homebrewing processes. When I homebrew IPAs (with dry hopping) I have consistently noticed that the beers reach peak of flavor many weeks post the bottling date. My homebrewed bottle conditioned IPAs are fully carbonated at 2 weeks post the bottling date but the beers need an additional 1-3 weeks of 'extra' conditioning time before the beers are truly enjoyable. At the 2 week mark the flavor profile is muddled just as you mentioned in your prior post. The conventional wisdom is that hoppy beers should be consumed as early as possible but this conventional wisdom is not consistent with my homebrewed IPAs since they need 'extra' time in the bottle to reach their peak of flavor.

    Your comment on the 'mysteries' and 'intricacies' of dry hopping is spot on IMO. It seems that every brewer (commercial and non-commercial) all have differing methods/techniques and philosophies on this topic. I think that Dave Green (@telejunkie) did an excellent job in his article entitled "Advanced Dry Hopping Techniques" in BYO (see link below) in discussing this topic. He purposefully did not advocate a single approach in this matter but instead approached the topic broadly to more thoroughly and open mindedly discuss the various aspects so brewers can fully see the various possibilities from a technique perspective.

    https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

    A source of "science" on the topic of dry hopping that I enjoyed reading was the Master Thesis of @Peter_Wolfe. See link below:

    http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/34093/Wolfe_thesis.pdf?sequence=1

    Cheers!
     
    #75 JackHorzempa, Mar 20, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  16. Roguer

    Roguer Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,757) Mar 25, 2013 Connecticut
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    This is a fantastic post. Very interesting; thanks for sharing!

    I'm a big fan of unfiltered beers, but unfiltered beers can also be pretty clear and clean. These "Northeast" style DIPAs are definitely something unique. Of course, if they weren't delicious, their odd appearance wouldn't matter in the slightest. Clear or murky: give me a beer that's delicious. :wink:
     
  17. Roguer

    Roguer Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,757) Mar 25, 2013 Connecticut
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    The conventional wisdom is also not consistent with many commercially brewed IPAs, either through personal experience or the opinions of the brewers themselves.

    I think there are multiple factors at work when it comes to whether or not an IPA may be at its peak immediately after bottling/canning, or after a waiting period.

    One example: Citra hops. I personally find beers that are Citra-dominant improve over the first couple weeks. They start off massively dank to my palate, but grow mellow and juicy in the 2-3 week period. So the hop selection matters a great deal. (And for some people, that muddled dankness might be what they love about Citra hops, so their own personal peak would be quite different than mine.)

    Contrasting examples: Heady and Sucks. Whether it's the hop selection, hop load, or the yeast used, I find Heady is delicious from day one to day 60. It never seems to lose its freshness, and it may hit a peak after a couple weeks. Sucks, on the other hand, is delicious day one, but after only a month seems to fall off into a stale cardboard oblivion. Both are delicious hop bombs; they don't age remotely the same. (To me.)

    Because of the drop off in so many IPAs, I don't think the conventional wisdom is exactly wrong (drink IPAs as fresh as possible), so much as it is a generalization that is impossible to apply as a blanket statement. Even if an IPA isn't at its peak the day after canning, most of them will be well past their peak if you wait too long, and there's no coming back from that. So if I have to default to an answer, not knowing exactly how a new IPA is going to come across, I'm going to try to drink it within 3-4 weeks of canning, and I won't shy away from drinking it as fresh as possible.

    A beer with which I'm familiar? Where I know how it will age over the course of a few weeks or even a couple of months? Toss out the conventional wisdom, and bring me an "old" month-old IPA! :slight_smile:
     
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  18. Jay_P22

    Jay_P22 Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2016 Virginia

    Dope can and name. Love the hazy look of that beer. Never been to Minnesota but if I did I would try that for sure. Send me one!
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Evaluating commercial beers can be challenging since it is not always easy to obtain them a day or so after packaging. One commercial beer that I am able to do this with is Troegs Nugget Nectar since I live near the brewery and it is a seasonal. For the past 5 (or so) years I have been able to obtain a case of these beers when they are only 3-4 days old. For this beer I have learned that I do not like it that fresh. I place the case in my basement and I do not start drinking it for about one week post purchase.

    You bring up a good discussion topic that individuals may have differing opinions on what constitutes peak of flavor.

    The beauty of homebrewing is that I obtain every one of my beers fresh. I have homebrewed IPAs which have featured many different varieties of hops (Centennial, Cascade, Citra, Simcoe, Amarillo, Mosaic, Equinox,...) and FWIW all of those beers were 'best' about 3-5 weeks post the bottling date for my palate. I have never noted any difference from a hop variety perspective in my homebrewed beers.

    Cheers!
     
    #79 JackHorzempa, Mar 20, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  20. nickfl

    nickfl Initiate (0) Mar 7, 2006 Florida

    So what is it that made that beer different? Why was that one hazy when the others weren't?
     
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