Abyss

Discussion in 'Pacific' started by Chelsea1905, Dec 24, 2015.

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  1. sharpski

    sharpski Pooh-Bah (2,806) Oct 11, 2010 Canada (BC)
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Deschutes has been in on the specialty/limited releases for quite a while (Abyss, Dissident, et al), but in the past few years they seem to have added an entirely separate, higher tier of specialness with the Pub Reserves and Abyss variants, and significantly higher price points to match. I'd be really interested to see some volume and sales data comparisons between the tiers.

    The first few pub releases seemed to be a test of the market's willingness to accept boutique brewery pricing from a large brewery, and their continued releases seem to indicate they've been successful (though with a longer time in the pipeline the recent releases had to have begun production well before they knew if it would work or not). There have been a couple of different price points for these different beers, so I'm curious if they've found a ceiling where $25 for an Abyss variant is preventing a quick sell through, and whether or not that affects their planning for pricing/volume for future projects.
     
  2. EdwardAbbey

    EdwardAbbey Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2015 Washington
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    As much as I like and respect Deschutes, their pricing for barrel-aged beers has always seemed strangely anomalous to me. For their regular Reserve Series, which tend to only be ~25-50% barrel-aged, the prices I see are usually a buck or two more than FW, for example, or on par with the 100% barrel-aged offerings I see from much smaller local producers (like Fremont, Reuben's, Black Raven, and Three Magnets, to name a few). I won't even mention Lagunitas, which put out a very good barrel-aged stout at about half the price.

    With the Abyss variants, which were the first 100% barrel-aged releases from Deschutes I'd ever seen in Seattle, the price I saw everywhere was ~$25, which was $8-9 more than just about anything else fully barrel-aged. I know that size matters--economies of scale, purchasing power, and all that--but Deschutes should be big enough to put out these beers for less than they do, and yet they don't. Does anyone know the reason?
     
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  3. RedMedicine

    RedMedicine Initiate (0) Jun 3, 2005 Oregon

    Not sure what has changed but 5-7 years ago Abyss was a great value.
     
  4. sharpski

    sharpski Pooh-Bah (2,806) Oct 11, 2010 Canada (BC)
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    My barstool analysis is that when Larry Sidor was at Deschutes, he placed a high importance on balance and restraint. Hitting the profile he wanted was more important than the stats on the label. Deschutes is a decently sized ship, and doesn't turn quickly, so it has taken a few years since Larry's departure for Deschutes to build a more aggressive lineup from Fresh Squeezed 6pks to 100% BA Black Butte.
     
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  5. EdwardAbbey

    EdwardAbbey Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2015 Washington
    Deactivated

    This is as good an explanation as any I've heard, but it still serves as poor justification for the pricing I see. Does Deschutes have to pay that much more for barrels than other breweries? Does their barrel program, because of some unknown inefficiency, cost that much more to run? Or did they just calculate, many years ago, that a partially or fully barrel-aged beer ought to be set at a certain proportionally higher price, and then never find any way, over the years, to reduce it?

    I'll keep supporting them (modestly), at least when it comes to the beers I especially like, but that doesn't mean I won't bat an eye when I pick them up.
     
  6. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,282) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    US. We are the reason. We consumers showed Deschutes that $8-9 bottles of Abyss were underpriced by running out and buying all the $15-20 bottles of other beers that we saw. Can't blame the brewery for trying to find the point where they can sell the beers for as much as we're willing to pay.
     
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  7. vurt

    vurt Grand Pooh-Bah (3,578) Apr 11, 2004 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Are they having any problems selling Rye and Cognac Abyss to the beer geeks who have been slavering over them since those variants were announced last year? Are people still posting regularly to this thread to let other folks know where they can find some?

    There is clearly a demand for these beers. As long as they sell, the price is not too high.

    Or to put it another way: As long as they sell, why should they reduce the price?
     
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  8. John_M

    John_M Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,275) Oct 25, 2003 Washington
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    That's pretty much my take as well. This kind of behavior is actually very common in the wine industry, where wineries routinely jack the price up on their wine, based on perceived demand (and not actual costs).

    In the case of the rye and cognac Abyss, $25 is perceived as high in this market (which I think partially explains why bottles are now "turding it up" all over town here in Eugene), but no place else, from what I can tell. I have a trading partner in SEPA, and he mentioned that a very limited amount of cognac and rye came into the Philly area, and they were snapped up almost immediately. Most places that did receive bottles, were apparently pricing them for considerably more than $25 a bottle. Apparently, that didn't slow down sales one bit. I ended up shipping him a couple of bottles, as that was ultimately cheaper and easier for him, rather than trying to track down bottles locally.

    When bottles first hit Eugene, they were snapped up pretty quickly, due to the perceived limited availability of the beers. Now that it's become apparent that the supply is not nearly so limited, sales have slowed down considerably.
     
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  9. BoodyBeer

    BoodyBeer Aspirant (291) May 28, 2005 Massachusetts

    I did some deep investigations into the amount produced - (googled 'cognac abyss', and in the first hit was the Deschutes release page on the beers - a staff member answers in the comment section)

    Cognac = 1900 cases produced
    Rye = 2650 cases produced
     
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  10. maltmaster420

    maltmaster420 Initiate (0) Aug 17, 2005 Oregon

    It seems to me like they're trying to find that happy medium between "that sold out too quick because it was underpriced" and "it turned into a shelf turd because we priced it too high." Apparently $25 per bottle is close to the market clearing (aka equilibrium) price for their 100% BA beers.
     
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  11. EdwardAbbey

    EdwardAbbey Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2015 Washington
    Deactivated

    Of course it is true that they seek to charge the highest price that people are willing to pay and yet still sell all that they make. I don't think I ever took Econ 101, but I'm also no fool. Well, not that much of a fool, at any rate. :wink:

    But that explanation seems too simple, and perhaps also too cynical to me. By this logic, the presumably good people who run Deschutes are significantly more avaricious than the good people who run, say, FW, Lagunitas, Fremont, Reuben's, De Garde, and countless others large and small. Each of these breweries has put out a barrel-aged beer they could easily charge significantly more for and still sell out, year after year, and yet they don't. What gives? Have they all taken a vow of poverty, while Deschutes is the only unrepentant capitalist of the bunch?
     
  12. JasonJYoung

    JasonJYoung Initiate (0) Jan 7, 2015 Washington
    Trader

    How ironic, because I too was gonna post about a wooden display sitting in the corner between the wine and refrigerated beer at PCC Greenlake.

    Heck, I also saw it at two different convinence stores in the outer suburbs of Seattle. It was priced at $27.99 which I thought a little high, but still grabbed one of each. This was before I saw them listed for $25 at PCC the next day. Regular Abyss is still available around town and it's almost May 2016. What the hell!

    BTW: FW Helldorado, FW Velvet Merlin, FW Merkin, Fremont Barrel Aged Dark Star & Fremont Abominable were on shelves in the Seattle area as of Monday April 25th. Fingers crossed I run across some BCBS at this rate :slight_smile:
     
  13. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,282) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Well, there's clearly more to it than just finding out what the market will bear. You've got the time factor, more equipment, more space needed, more general infrastructure internally, distributor mark-up, retailer mark-up, and transportation costs (Bend, while wonderful, might not be exactly in the middle of nowhere, but it's at least on the edge). But yeah, the brewery finding what the market will bear just has to be part of the equation too.
     
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  14. derftron

    derftron Pooh-Bah (1,639) Feb 8, 2012 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah Society

    If BA Dark Star is available, I wouldnt give two *bleeps* about running in to BCBS
     
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  15. JasonJYoung

    JasonJYoung Initiate (0) Jan 7, 2015 Washington
    Trader

    Ha ha derftron. I picked up two of the Fremont BA Dark Star (non-coffee/cinnamon) and debated how long to sit on these before trying. I never had it before, but people around Seattle worship this stuff.

    My Midwest mindset keeps drawing me back to BCBS since leaving Kansas City in 2015. I'm sure I'll adapt after trying the BA Dark Star.
     
  16. EdwardAbbey

    EdwardAbbey Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2015 Washington
    Deactivated

    I appreciate the effort to further illuminate, but I'm not sure it helps explain why Deschutes charges significantly more for barrel-aged beer than many of their competitors, large and small, putting out stuff just as coveted. It seems to me there are two plausible explanations which could account for the difference: 1.) There are economic inefficiencies in their barrel program, relative to those of others, which lead them to pass the added production cost onto the consumer; and 2.) They simply set the MSRP higher than others do because they know they can and they're more shameless. Maybe, in the end, it's a combination of both.
     
    #216 EdwardAbbey, Apr 28, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
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  17. JasonJYoung

    JasonJYoung Initiate (0) Jan 7, 2015 Washington
    Trader

    That is a great response EdwardAbbey! Working in the supply chain industry, I just don't think many consumers fully grasp all the costs involved with distributing goods (especially beer). Often times, breweries fail to establish/hire experienced supply chain professionals to uncover ways of cutting these costs. Instead, the breweries just go along with whatever inflated costs the middlemen (distributors) are putting into the contracts. Regardless, so much blame to go around.

    But yes, I too agree that Deschutes barrel aged stuff shouldn't be as high as is. Especially in regions near their brew-house/barrel houses. Then again, who the hell really knows how prices are set.
     
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  18. carrolri

    carrolri Initiate (0) Apr 30, 2011 Washington

    Anyone know why Abyss is showing up again? I have found multiple bottles at my grocery outlet and recently my Haggens. Seems like way too much was produced.
     
  19. EdwardAbbey

    EdwardAbbey Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2015 Washington
    Deactivated

    Well, if it all sells out at the MSRP, which, eventually, it will, then the "right" amount was produced. :slight_smile:

    But I'm curious: is it the regular you've seen re-appearing, or the variants? I've only noticed the latter cropping up of late, and their re-emergence has raised some eyebrows where I'm concerned. The more cynical interpretation would be that Deschutes advertised these releases as "remarkably limited" as part of a shameless effort to stoke up demand when they first hit the market, even though they knew they had a lot more in store. The more generous interpretation would be that they knew the beers would be in high demand, and thus held some back (or asked the distributors to do so), so the truck-chasers wouldn't claim the lion's share. I don't know the truth of the matter, but these strike me as the two most likely possibilities.
     
    #219 EdwardAbbey, May 12, 2016
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  20. vurt

    vurt Grand Pooh-Bah (3,578) Apr 11, 2004 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Way too much delicious beer? Seems like a good problem to have.
     
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