Berliner Weisee not tasting sour - should I pitch more bacteria?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Jcueland, Aug 7, 2016.

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  1. Jcueland

    Jcueland Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2016

    My first attempt at a sour beer and I'm trying a Berliner Weisse. After two weeks it's barely sour I would say it just has an off flavor (like poor sanitation) and seems like my bacteria culture I pitched did nothing. Is there anything I can do? I'm thinking of pitching more bacteria but maybe I should just toss it.

    Here's some stats
    Mashed 4.2 lbs Franco Belgian Pilsen and 3.0 lbs Canadian Wheat at 150 degrees for one hour. Mash ph was 5.4
    boiled one hour
    OG 1.042
    FG 1.009 after 2 weeks
    Pitched European ale yeast WLP011 and on second day of fermentation pitched Lactobacillus wyeast 5335
    Held at constant 68.0 degrees

    Currently tastes bland and not much sour taste. Any advice would be appreciated
     
    HeyItsThatGuy likes this.
  2. HeyItsThatGuy

    HeyItsThatGuy Initiate (0) Feb 27, 2016 Illinois

    Don't quite know enough to help, just a sour lover, particularly with Berliner weisses, so good luck! Hope It works out for ya! :grinning: :slight_smile: -_- :O :3
     
  3. Relik

    Relik Zealot (579) Apr 20, 2011 Canada (NS)

    Seems like your method is slightly flawed. This is what i would do:

    Brew your beer as normal with the goal of getting your pH to the 4.5 range ( acidulated malt can help or acidify your wort with lactic acid).

    Boil your wort for 90 minutes to blow off and DMS but do not add hops.

    Pitch your lacto in the kettle and hold at 96-112°F for roughly 24 hours. Your pH should drop pretty quick to the middle of 3 range (below 3.4 fermentation gets sketchy).

    Boil your wort once again and add enough hops to achieve your ideal IBU content ( 3-8 IBU)

    Aerate wort as normal. Pitch your ale yeast.

    Reach target gravity and rack as normal.
     
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  4. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (1,912) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    You didn't mention hop additions. But I can speculate that you brewed it normal and did them to schedule. At which point. I will surmise that the bitterness of your hop schedule is what prevented your lacto from taking up shop. I agree with Relik that the easier way to do a lacto sour is to let the lacto have at your (boiled or unboiled) wort first (no hop additions), and then after a day or several, do your regular boil schedule and your hop additions then. If temperature control is your thing for the lacto pitch. Do it. If not. Pitch the lacto when it's about 110 and call it a day.
    I typically take the grain that requires a lower gelatinization temp use that for the lacto pitch. In this case it is wheat which is between 136-147 F.
    You probably are at the point with this one where your hops are genuinely acting like they should and preserving your beer, which is, in effect, preventing your lacto from setting up shop.
     
  5. Jcueland

    Jcueland Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2016

    Correct, I did a hop addition of 25 minutes 1 oz Hallertau 2.9% AA. So then the hops are preventing the Lactobacillus from growing. Can I pitch more or should I chalk this one up as a learning exercise?
     
  6. Relik

    Relik Zealot (579) Apr 20, 2011 Canada (NS)

    that is why i like the kettle sour approach, basically a hop-less whrilpool in that 96-122°F temp range. Allowing the lacto to drop the pH before you kill it off with the boil and then add your hop addition and pitch like normal. and if you want dry hop for a little more complexity after terminal is reached.
     
  7. DrMindbender

    DrMindbender Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2014 South Carolina

    It takes more time for traditional souring compared to most beers and 2 weeks isn't much time for one to develop really. You could add a half carton to a carton of Good Belly which contains lacto plantarum that sours quickly at room temp compared to many lacto strains that prefer higher temps. Otherwise, it's just going to take more time than 2 weeks to get a well rounded pucker.

    I prefer to sour more traditionally by copitching my lacto and clean yeast and waiting for a few months, compared to souring preboil...it just seems to have a better flavor in the long run to me. I also don't add any hops in any of my traditional sours to make sure the lacto dominates the pH better.
     
  8. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    I don't like kettle sour at home, too much oxygen ingress risk and butyric acid.

    If I were you, next time I'd get a big lacto culture. Brew day as normal, mash high, some cereal grain, knock out at 120 F into CO2 purged fermenter. Purge the wort in fermenter with CO2 via carb stone for 5-10 mins. Pitch lacto culture. Airlock it. Put it in garage or something hot to keep temp around 90-100F.

    Let acid develop for 48-72 hrs then test. Pitch saccharomyces culture when desired acidity approaching and transfer to lower temp environment before pitching saccharomyces.
     
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  9. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    When you pitch yeast before bacteria, you don't give bacteria chance to compete.. this no acid development.
     
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  10. bushycook

    bushycook Initiate (0) Jan 31, 2011 Virginia

    Lacto p. hates hops though, I don't think Goodbelly is going to do much for him now. GB is awesome for no hop, no boil Berliners though.
     
    DrMindbender likes this.
  11. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    I don't think you've hit FG after 2 weeks of Lacto working and especially not at 1.009. It should be able to knock a few more points off if you can keep it around 70-72F for a while longer.

    As others have said naturally souring will take a pretty long time. Some brewers have added complex sugars that only bugs want to chew through. Maybe some comments below on adding some maltodextrin or the like.
     
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