Tired Hands (September 2017)

Discussion in 'Mid-Atlantic' started by LuckyOneSix, Sep 3, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Maven (1,451) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    1. Absolutely, definitely not denying that.

    2. Not denying the "ridiculousness," just wondering where the moral indignation (not from you) comes into play.
     
  2. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Maven (1,451) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Totally agree and understand about the crowd... I don't necessarily think that's a function of the secondary market (and is something you'll find in any large, fast-growing hobby). There's still plenty of camaraderie and goodwill in the beer community, I think -- it's more just a matter of filtering out the bullshit.
     
  3. CharacterZero

    CharacterZero Initiate (0) Aug 23, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Tone Poem is awesome, tried it last week at the Brew Cafe. The honey really shines.
     
  4. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,245) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    When sadly then I guess that explains it.

    Jeez, who the fuck is buying it? Maybe trust-funders are ditching cocaine for hazy beers.

    Uh, there's nothing really "grey" about that.

    I get your drift. I haven't seen Phish but plenty of other jam and/or rock bands, and often the ticket scalpers and drug dealers stand out like a sore thumb.
     
    jrnyc and Adrena1ine like this.
  5. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,245) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It's the same way that Ticketmaster, organized ticket scalpers, and secondary market sites like Stubhub have ruined sporting events and concerts. There is an unnecessary middle-man that increases prices without adding any added benefit to the consumer.
     
    jrnyc and ECdOc like this.
  6. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,245) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It certainly benefits the breweries that use trading as their "distribution" since they can sell all of their beer at retail prices, not wholesale. But I don't see how that benefits consumers, since the traditional two or three tier distribution system is more cost efficient than FedExing beer or paying a 300% markup from a guy selling out of his trunk.

    But that's chicken-egg situation. If no-one would pay $20 a can, less people would stand in line for it, so you wouldn't need to save time and effort. So you if you pay the $20, you're part of the problem that you are trying to solve.
     
    jrnyc, JackHorzempa and ECdOc like this.
  7. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Maven (1,451) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Isn't it a benefit to consumers in California that they are able to now access Tired Hands beers, at all, without flying across the country?
     
  8. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,245) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I think there are most certainly breweries in California that brew similar quality beer. But that aside, if the demand exists, then consumers would benefit more from legal distribution. It is more cost effective, and consumers have better protection against fraud/counterfeit goods.
     
  9. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Maven (1,451) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    I'm sure there are breweries in California brewing beers both similar in quality and style. But, they are not Tired Hands beers. And if consumers want Tired Hands beers, then it is a benefit to those consumers to have access to them without flying across the country, right? And doesn't the secondary market provide this benefit?

    And even if the consumers would benefit more from legal distribution... it isn't there.

    So... then isn't this market therefore still providing a benefit to these particular consumers?

    Again, I'm not saying that the secondary market is some virtuous device, or even that it is good for the industry or for consumers, etc... I'm only confused at the outrage towards it.
     
  10. kdb150

    kdb150 Initiate (0) Mar 8, 2012 Pennsylvania

    The three tier system is more cost-efficient, but FAR less time-efficient, and target-efficient than the direct gray-market distribution channels that these beers currently go through. There are clear benefits to consumers in this system, just not in cost. The beer can be obtained fresher. It's not being distributed on the whims of a guy or software who has 1000s of other brands to make distribution decisions on.

    And perhaps most importantly - if they went into distribution, you'd have the exact same scenario playing out at beer shops across the region, and the exact same grey market would still exist. The only difference is you'd have middlemen taking a slice of it for the wonderful service of delaying the product's entry to market. And both store proprieters/employees and distributors keeping the product for themselves, to sell at grey market markup what they were able to obtain for less than retail.

    Any way you slice it, the grey market is going to exist. This at least gives the benefits of it to the people most deserving of them. Spreading the beer through distribution channels just gives it to middlemen. That benefits the middlemen, not the consumer.
     
    William_Navidson likes this.
  11. Dando274

    Dando274 Initiate (0) Jan 12, 2016 Pennsylvania

    It may or may not be morally objectionable but I think the primary issue is that scalpers are annoying as hell to people that just want to buy tickets (or drink beer).
     
    jrnyc and GoldenWort like this.
  12. scottDC

    scottDC Initiate (0) Jul 3, 2013 District of Columbia

    this is a really pedantic aside, but a 3rd party selling beer out of a car is an illegal black market. a grey market would be selling legally in an unregulated or less regulated market, like in DC where you can "self import," pay a tax, and sell a beer that's not available through conventional distribution channels on retail shelves.
     
    jrnyc, breslinp, JackHorzempa and 3 others like this.
  13. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Maven (1,451) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Totally fair. However, I'm only concerned here with the people that find it morally objectionable... because I find this position pretty nonsensical, to be honest.
     
  14. TheEpeeist

    TheEpeeist Maven (1,360) Nov 5, 2008 Maryland
    Trader

    if Milkshakes were one 4-pack per person until 8:00, and then after three per person, which line would be longer? the 5 PM or 8 PM? which line would get the most chair drops?
     
  15. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,245) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It depends. Multiple times I've purchased beer at my local distributor that was less than a week old. If a beer is popular, it's not going to sit on shelves.

    But again, only if people give in and buy it at the jacked up price on the secondary market. Oh and I agree with @scottDC 's comment that this is definitely black market since it's illegal.

    Question for you or others (because I don't get involved with this stuff): what was the effect on Alchemist's beer "value" when they built their bigger brewery? Does their regional self-distribution have an effect?
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    In all likelihood their is from a local customer perspective. For example when Vault releases their beers the consumers go on-line and obtain a 'voucher' which assures them access to the beer they choose to purchase. The brewery then gives them a time period (one week I think) to come to the brewery at their convenience and pick up their cans of beers. This method eliminates lines and permits the customers to come in at a time that is convenient to them.

    I suspect that Tired Hands is not too motivated to make changes in how they release their cans since this present method generates a tremendous amount of hype which then permits Tired Hands to charge high prices - up to $25 per four-pack. The present system may not be very customer friendly for the local beer consumers but from a financial perspective it sure seems to work very well for the Tired Hands company.

    Cheers!
     
    jmdrpi likes this.
  17. GoldenWort

    GoldenWort Aspirant (298) Apr 17, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Maybe folks are just arguing semantics?.... If it ain't "right" from "my" perspective in that it interferes with my desire and/or ability to get a shake for myself than it's just bad... not right... "immoral?"... another example of relative moralism?...
     
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Perhaps you are following posts on BA (and other forums?) on this matter more closely than I am.

    It seems to me that breaking the law is directly correlated to viewing this as morally wrong.

    I am uncertain how one could objectively measure a moral outrage of beyond and above objections to law breaking.

    Maybe you could start a poll in the Beer Talk forum and carefully construct a poll to obtain 'better' data on this topic?

    Cheers!
     
    jrnyc and ECdOc like this.
  19. kdb150

    kdb150 Initiate (0) Mar 8, 2012 Pennsylvania

    No, it's people using legality as a cover for the fact that they're butthurt over how difficult this beer is to get at retail. Which I understand, but let's not pretend that this is the product of some deep moral thinking on the part of the people who are up on their high horses.

    But that's just one anecdotal example that has happened to you a couple of times, at one location. Is that same thing happening for beer that needs to be shipped across the country, at the multitudes of distributors and retail outlets that people buy beer from? And what about people without ready access to craft beer stores/distributors?

    Point is, there are plenty of plusses to consumers the way this works now. For most, it far outweighs the negatives, especially because putting the beer out into distribution doesn't do anything to dissuade grey/black market resale, or to dissuade traders from staking out the beer at stores. Putting such an in-demand beer out into distribution mainly benefits the distributors and retailers.

    The price isn't jacked up, though. The market will bear what it will bear. People aren't "giving in," they know they are paying a large markup and are doing so willingly, for whatever reason. Given that one would have had to invest several hours of one's time to get this beer, I don't see how that's unreasonable. Telling people they shouldn't pay that price isn't your place.
     
  20. ECdOc

    ECdOc Initiate (0) Nov 9, 2004 Pennsylvania

    There is no question of morality, It is illegal, and inherently "bad" because of that. It increases the prices for that beer and similar beers artificially. It encourages other breweries to follow suit with similar practices which eventually increases beer prices for all consumers (ever seen the average price of beer go down?). Most of all it brings a whole slew of hype culture baggage with it that did not exist within the beer scene before this practice became somewhat commonplace, and is therefore frowned upon. If tired hands wants to reach consumers in California, then good for them but they should have to go through all of the proper channels to do so. Allowing and encouraging this behavior is not good for anyone but the person who is profiting from these black market beer sales. I must ask, why are you attempting to morally justify your/others' illegal behavior?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.